Bring back Z steal?

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ilvsntrs
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Re: Bring back Z steal?

Post by ilvsntrs » Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:58 am

i liked the coin flip of boost steal in def, but was not relying on it. therefore im not gonna pronounce myself on weither it should be reimplemented or not.
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Re: Bring back Z steal?

Post by TinyTerran » Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:13 pm

Honestly I would prefer if skaters and goalies had solid bodies and didn't go through each other like ghosts. I know that increased ping and other complications would probably result from making a change like this, but that is not the focus of the point I'm trying to make. The meta has become extremely stale and the way stealing works feels like a gimmick. All I see at the "higher" level of play is players just spam clicking on top of each other to get puck possession. That doesn't take skill, just luck and good ping. Also there is no reliable way of defending that isn't based on spam clicking like someone on cocaine (bitch defense, I'm looking at you). Something that REALLY bothers me is when a skater just spams on top of a defender on the crease to get the puck in the goal, completely negating defender's advantage. Along with adding solid player bodies, increasing net size and giving the goalie some compensatory buff might help get rid of this gimmick. I know some people would argue that this would make the game super imbalanced in certain areas, but actually experimenting and adding new (albeit balanced) features would make the game so much more exciting and fresh. I would like to see some new, fresh ideas that change the way the game is played.

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Re: Bring back Z steal?

Post by krazymen » Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:38 pm

Alright, so im going to build on what tinyterran said to explain the positives of boost stealing for skaters in terms of defense. I wont touch offense since those seems to be more obvious. As a defender in the current meta without boost stealing you have to deal with offense player saving their boost and just trying to go thru you by spam clicking their zealot, they do not care 1 bit if you have boost or not their goal is just to get on top of you and walk to the goalie by spamming, that type of offense is being played more and more lately and is very succesful, on NA at least. In the past some people used it but it wasnt as succesful for a very simple reason, with boost steal once the offense player got on your zealot while spamming on himself you could click and boost at the same time which wouldnt let him get the puck back because the boost would remove the puck from the initial range, the only time where he would get the puck back is if you boosted at the wrong time and the positioning wasnt impecable which permitted the offense player to do a vap steal to get the puck back. In short boost stealing in this situation (1v1) was extremely useful against spam clickers.

The only argument i keep seeing over and over is the idea that boost stealing was random which i couldnt disagree more. Boost stealing was constantly used by some players in such a manner that it was very precise and powerful in its execution against someone that was oblivious with the stealing range of the ability. Another great strategy used by defenders were offensively boosting for a steal in order to clear, lets say on a 2v1 you can either block the passing line or be agressive on the player, usually youd pick a player and boost at him before he could react and pass the puck and it was more much succesful when the boost was actually a threat rather than simply a movement speed upgrade. None of the situation mentioned here were a mistake by the defender being in a bad position, in fact its an answer to the style of the offense hes playing against.

Nowdays the only difference a boost makes on defense is to GET back in an advantageous position which is exactly what you say boost stealing used to do. The fact is the current boost is dumbed down and lacks any type of increased mechanic related to it. It is simply momentary speed upgrade that wont evolve the meta in any way shape or form. The old boost stealing brought something more to the offense, a faster type of offense, with a more dynamic type of defense that gave more safe options to the defender in order to secure the puck.
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Re: Bring back Z steal?

Post by TinyTerran » Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:03 pm

krazymen wrote:Alright, so im going to build on what tinyterran said to explain the positives of boost stealing for skaters in terms of defense. I wont touch offense since those seems to be more obvious. As a defender in the current meta without boost stealing you have to deal with offense player saving their boost and just trying to go thru you by spam clicking their zealot, they do not care 1 bit if you have boost or not their goal is just to get on top of you and walk to the goalie by spamming, that type of offense is being played more and more lately and is very succesful, on NA at least. In the past some people used it but it wasnt as succesful for a very simple reason, with boost steal once the offense player got on your zealot while spamming on himself you could click and boost at the same time which wouldnt let him get the puck back because the boost would remove the puck from the initial range, the only time where he would get the puck back is if you boosted at the wrong time and the positioning wasnt impecable which permitted the offense player to do a vap steal to get the puck back. In short boost stealing in this situation (1v1) was extremely useful against spam clickers.

The only argument i keep seeing over and over is the idea that boost stealing was random which i couldnt disagree more. Boost stealing was constantly used by some players in such a manner that it was very precise and powerful in its execution against someone that was oblivious with the stealing range of the ability. Another great strategy used by defenders were offensively boosting for a steal in order to clear, lets say on a 2v1 you can either block the passing line or be agressive on the player, usually youd pick a player and boost at him before he could react and pass the puck and it was more much succesful when the boost was actually a threat rather than simply a movement speed upgrade. None of the situation mentioned here were a mistake by the defender being in a bad position, in fact its an answer to the style of the offense hes playing against.

Nowdays the only difference a boost makes on defense is to GET back in an advantageous position which is exactly what you say boost stealing used to do. The fact is the current boost is dumbed down and lacks any type of increased mechanic related to it. It is simply momentary speed upgrade that wont evolve the meta in any way shape or form. The old boost stealing brought something more to the offense, a faster type of offense, with a more dynamic type of defense that gave more safe options to the defender in order to secure the puck.
I forgot to mention that I'm in favor of bringing back the old boost steal. I strongly agree with the points you make and definitely liked the diversity of play that the old boost steal offered. In retrospect removing boost steal seemed like such a senseless change.
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Re: Bring back Z steal?

Post by Watermelon » Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:24 pm

I am also in favor of bringing back the z steal if that wasn't clear from my earlier post. Removing it put too much emphasis on spam clicking, which gave an unnecessary advantage to central players (since 95% of games are chicago these days...) because spam is simply faster with less delay on your clicks
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Re: Bring back Z steal?

Post by BoooM » Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:17 pm

krazymen wrote:
MoS wrote:
krazymen wrote:
That is wrong on so many levels of you don't see the advantage Defender can get with boost stealing and don't even know what you can do with boost stealing no wonder you want it gone.

If you boost as a defender it means you are already out of position. In absolutely no case it should be used to steal the puck for it is far too risky, unless it's your last chance - and that means you already failed as a defender so it is irrelevant.
Boost steal added a convenient "high risk - very high reward" for players who actually struggle to control standard plays and master basic mechanisms in defense. Following this logic and giving less impact to a risky move, we encourage a more stable and constructive meta. I've already spoken on boost-steal for offense.

I feel like I'm repeating myself but you are not explaining all the fantastic things you can do with a boost steal in defense while I'm explaining you all the fantastic things you should not do in defense. One more post and I should consider this a paid training Kappa
I've already explained it before but i guess some people have a bad memory Kappa. I'll do again later once i get on my pc just for you
As a matter of fact, you did not. You actually dodged most arguments specifically against your claims. (See the thread I linked to in my previous post.)

krazymen wrote:Alright, so im going to build on what tinyterran said to explain the positives of boost stealing for skaters in terms of defense. I wont touch offense since those seems to be more obvious. As a defender in the current meta without boost stealing you have to deal with offense player saving their boost and just trying to go thru you by spam clicking their zealot, they do not care 1 bit if you have boost or not their goal is just to get on top of you and walk to the goalie by spamming, that type of offense is being played more and more lately and is very succesful, on NA at least.
You only need to stay on top of the striker and spam away yourself. He can't shoot through you, he has trouble controling the puck due to your spam, and more often than not you would be able to spam it to the side. This has always been the optimal way to prevent somebody that tries to go through you from scoring. Boost steal never mattered in this situation. Sure you could try to boost steal away from him and end up with the puck, but this is just granting him breakaways and basically free goals on a regular basis.
1 year ago nearly noone could do the spam clicking reliably on EU. Nowadays, dozens of players manage to keep spam clicking for any lenght. At the same time, this seems to yield a result only in pubs where the "defence" has no clue how to position themselves. In high level games, spam clicking that leads to a goal is a rarity.
krazymen wrote:In the past some people used it but it wasnt as succesful for a very simple reason, with boost steal once the offense player got on your zealot while spamming on himself you could click and boost at the same time which wouldnt let him get the puck back because the boost would remove the puck from the initial range, the only time where he would get the puck back is if you boosted at the wrong time and the positioning wasnt impecable which permitted the offense player to do a vap steal to get the puck back.


How is this an argument for boost steal??? You are saying that in the past you needed to click and then boost out of range. How is this related to boost steal at all???
krazymen wrote:In short boost stealing in this situation (1v1) was extremely useful against spam clickers.
Very much so if you like giving them breakaways 50 or so percent of the time...
If you boosted towards them, they could easily dodge you. Fancier people would even resteal you while you are whooshing into nowhere. Unless you were playing vs strikers with a ping of say 80+ms, this move is a free breakaway.
If you boosted alongside with them, then the boost steal was never relevant since they were still in range to resteal you anyway, so you needed to always spam away.
krazymen wrote:The only argument i keep seeing over and over is the idea that boost stealing was random which i couldnt disagree more.

Boost stealing was never random. But you had a level of uncertainty on yolos, because you could not be 100% sure that you would steal with it if you were aiming for somebody at the end of the steal range. Now you know that you always need to click and do not happen to spam the puck away.
krazymen wrote:Boost stealing was constantly used by some players in such a manner that it was very precise and powerful in its execution against someone that was oblivious with the stealing range of the ability.

Yes, great to crush pubs. Fairly useless in any reasonably high level game...
krazymen wrote:Another great strategy used by defenders were offensively boosting for a steal in order to clear, lets say on a 2v1 you can either block the passing line or be agressive on the player, usually youd pick a player and boost at him before he could react and pass the puck and it was more much succesful when the boost was actually a threat rather than simply a movement speed upgrade.
Practically, there is absolutely 0 change in using this tactic. Clicking once after boosting is not a feat that is unachievable by humans...
The difficulty in this has always been the timing and aim of the boost. The added click is pretty much irrelevant.

krazymen wrote:Nowdays the only difference a boost makes on defense is to GET back in an advantageous position which is exactly what you say boost stealing used to do. The fact is the current boost is dumbed down and lacks any type of increased mechanic related to it.
You can make the exact argument against boost steal: "In the past, the game was so dumbed down that you did not even need to click to steal."

krazymen wrote: It is simply momentary speed upgrade that wont evolve the meta in any way shape or form.
10 or so sentences ago you claimed that after the boost steal was removed the meta evolved into spam clicking through the defence. Make up your mind, please!

krazymen wrote: The old boost stealing brought something more to the offense, a faster type of offense,
No, it did not. Its relevance did not extend past mediocre or lesser defenders.

krazymen wrote:with a more dynamic type of defense that gave more safe options to the defender in order to secure the puck.
What you call "safe" is a sub-optimal move in nearly any concievable situation considering that it translates into a free goal nearly every time you fail and that you have defensive options with a much higher chance of success.




The only reasonable argument for boost steal is that its removal affected high ping players disproportionately. But really, if you are playing with 100+ms you have much bigger issues than the missing boost steal.
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Re: Bring back Z steal?

Post by Blitz » Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:37 pm

Not sure why EU and NA are arguing, this disagreement is quite simple as shown by the people who have voiced their opinions so far. The large majority of NA players very much so want boost steal back, and the large majority of EU players don't want it back. I think we're just seeing a difference of playstyles clash, being that EU is way less steal oriented and far more pass oriented, while NA is a much more developed mix of the two. The solution seems simple to me, give NA boost steal back, and allow EU to enjoy a boost-steal free zone like they want.
BoooM wrote:
Yes, great to crush pubs. Fairly useless in any reasonably high level game...

No, it did not. Its relevance did not extend past mediocre or lesser defenders.
Boost steal was one of the highest skill cap areas within the game for a defender. I would know, I was one of the best defenders (most say the best, even been told my multiple EU players that I was better than EU defender they had ever seen) of all time. So I think I'm qualified to say that I'm above a "mediocre or lesser defender" and since I won the ZH3K tournament (and I was captain of the team, mind you) that I've been in at least a 1... maybe 2........... "reasonably high level games" and I have to say that boost steal was a defender's absolute biggest weapon in his arsenal. No offense to EU or you, but EU doesn't have the firepower type of offense that NA has, and you don't really have to deal with the type of players that we do. It's nearly impossible without boost steal to beat someone who is going to re steal me 3+ times from half-court to my net. The removal of boost-steal was one of the strongest nerfs TO DEFENSE that has ever been implemented.
Last edited by Blitz on Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bring back Z steal?

Post by krazymen » Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:45 pm

boom wrote: As a matter of fact, you did not. You actually dodged most arguments specifically against your claims. (See the thread I linked to in my previous post.)
I actually did explain situations where boost steal is really helpful in previous thread, you should actually read the whole thing.
boom wrote: You only need to stay on top of the striker and spam away yourself. He can't shoot through you, he has trouble controling the puck due to your spam, and more often than not you would be able to spam it to the side. This has always been the optimal way to prevent somebody that tries to go through you from scoring. Boost steal never mattered in this situation. Sure you could try to boost steal away from him and end up with the puck, but this is just granting him breakaways and basically free goals on a regular basis.
1 year ago nearly noone could do the spam clicking reliably on EU. Nowadays, dozens of players manage to keep spam clicking for any lenght. At the same time, this seems to yield a result only in pubs where the "defence" has no clue how to position themselves. In high level games, spam clicking that leads to a goal is a rarity.
Perhaps you dont actually play against good spammers because spamming it back wont actually work every time, the good offense (again on na idk wtf happens on eu) actually control the puck while spamming and thats how they score a lot of goals, the goal isnt to have good puck control the goal literally is just to get to the crease and get a quick shot in any corner of the net to get an easy goal with no tactical effort.

boom wrote: How is this an argument for boost steal??? You are saying that in the past you needed to click and then boost out of range. How is this related to boost steal at all???
I guess you dont understand why we want boost steal back? Theres a lot more spamming involved nowadays and I dont think its a good thing personally I dont enjoy the idea behind spamming the puck every single occasion you get to get goals or defend. Boost steal was a nice way to counter spamming for both side. Now we just spam more.
boom wrote: Very much so if you like giving them breakaways 50 or so percent of the time...
If you boosted towards them, they could easily dodge you. Fancier people would even resteal you while you are whooshing into nowhere. Unless you were playing vs strikers with a ping of say 80+ms, this move is a free breakaway.
If you boosted alongside with them, then the boost steal was never relevant since they were still in range to resteal you anyway, so you needed to always spam away.
here we go again with the randomness of boost stealing, no it is not a 50% chance if you are actually good its more in the 80-90%. It clearly shows that you have no knowledge of boost stealing if you think the only applicable boost stealing is to literally boost directly at them.
boom wrote: Boost stealing was never random. But you had a level of uncertainty on yolos, because you could not be 100% sure that you would steal with it if you were aiming for somebody at the end of the steal range. Now you know that you always need to click and do not happen to spam the puck away.
You mean that you didnt know if the person would actually react in time? Yeah yoloing didnt change 1 bit. The only reason someone was spamming while yoloing is because they were scared that the guy would resteal it and then give the OTHER team a breakaway. People still spam it nowadays during yolos, they spam it on their zealot which doesnt launch the puck away try it.
boom wrote: Yes, great to crush pubs. Fairly useless in any reasonably high level game...
Do you even play this game? -water
boom wrote: Practically, there is absolutely 0 change in using this tactic. Clicking once after boosting is not a feat that is unachievable by humans...
The difficulty in this has always been the timing and aim of the boost. The added click is pretty much irrelevant..
I guess ill just copy paste what i said up top It clearly shows that you have no knowledge of boost stealing if you think the additional STEAL doesnt do anything. If you were in a click battle and for 1 click you had 2 steal and the other guy had 1 steal do you really think it wouldnt have a different outcome?
boom wrote: You can make the exact argument against boost steal: "In the past, the game was so dumbed down that you did not even need to click to steal."
Except that you did because boost steal has a big cooldown on it which makes it a very rare ressource that you need to manage? In fact the clicking right now is dumbed down since its pretty much a whole bunch of spam.

boom wrote: 10 or so sentences ago you claimed that after the boost steal was removed the meta evolved into spam clicking through the defence. Make up your mind, please!
it didnt "evolve" the meta the meta got dumbed down. Very different.
boom wrote: No, it did not. Its relevance did not extend past mediocre or lesser defenders.

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Re: Bring back Z steal?

Post by krazymen » Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:46 pm

Blitz wrote:Not sure why EU and NA are arguing, this disagreement is quite simple as shown by the people who have voiced their opinions so far. The large majority of NA players very much so want boost steal back, and the large majority of EU players don't want it back. I think we're just seeing a difference of playstyles clash, being that EU is way less steal oriented and far more pass oriented, while NA is a much more developed mix of the two. The solution seems simple to me, give NA boost steal back, and allow EU to enjoy a boost-steal free zone like they want.
It seems that way, im not sure if that would be something the devs would want. I wont name anyone but it has been said it would be weird to have 2 different version of the same game.
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Re: Bring back Z steal?

Post by forumusername » Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:37 pm

but blitz u got benched
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