Bring back Z steal?

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Re: Bring back Z steal?

Post by RusH » Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:39 pm

Bring back Z steal? No thanks!
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Re: Bring back Z steal?

Post by BoooM » Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:04 pm

krazymen wrote:
boom wrote: As a matter of fact, you did not. You actually dodged most arguments specifically against your claims. (See the thread I linked to in my previous post.)
I actually did explain situations where boost steal is really helpful in previous thread, you should actually read the whole thing.
Yes, you gave examples. And no, you did not answer to counter arguments.
krazymen wrote:
boom wrote: You only need to stay on top of the striker and spam away yourself. He can't shoot through you, he has trouble controling the puck due to your spam, and more often than not you would be able to spam it to the side. This has always been the optimal way to prevent somebody that tries to go through you from scoring. Boost steal never mattered in this situation. Sure you could try to boost steal away from him and end up with the puck, but this is just granting him breakaways and basically free goals on a regular basis.
1 year ago nearly noone could do the spam clicking reliably on EU. Nowadays, dozens of players manage to keep spam clicking for any lenght. At the same time, this seems to yield a result only in pubs where the "defence" has no clue how to position themselves. In high level games, spam clicking that leads to a goal is a rarity.
I guess you dont actually play against good spammers because spamming it back wont actually work every time, the good offense (again on na idk wtf happens on eu) actually control the puck while spamming and thats how they score a lot of goals, the goal isnt to have good puck control the goal literally is just to get to the crease and get a quick shot in any corner of the net to get an easy goal with no tactical effort.
What a completely unfounded and plain stupid assumption to claim that only NA people can spam. Of course, you cannot mindlessly spam away and hope to score. Of course, top strikers control their spam very well. But as a defender, if you remain on top of them you will almost always have an opportunity to spam the puck away from them. In almost all situations, your sticks will have a large enough distance that if you spam to the opposite side of their stick, you will spam it away. Even in those situations where you fail to spam it away, you create a layer of difficulty for the striker in front of the crease. On the other hand, every single time you fail your boost steal, you leave the striker with plenty of time in front of and only the goalie as an obstacle.

krazymen wrote:
boom wrote: How is this an argument for boost steal??? You are saying that in the past you needed to click and then boost out of range. How is this related to boost steal at all???
I guess you dont understand why we want boost steal back? Theres a lot more spamming involved nowadays and I dont think its a good thing personally I dont enjoy the idea behind spamming the puck every single occasion you get to get goals or defend. Boost steal was a nice way to counter spamming for both side. Now we just spam more.
Your response has nothing to do with the fact that your previous statement made no sense or me pointing it out.

krazymen wrote:
boom wrote: Very much so if you like giving them breakaways 50 or so percent of the time...
If you boosted towards them, they could easily dodge you. Fancier people would even resteal you while you are whooshing into nowhere. Unless you were playing vs strikers with a ping of say 80+ms, this move is a free breakaway.
If you boosted alongside with them, then the boost steal was never relevant since they were still in range to resteal you anyway, so you needed to always spam away.
here we go again with the randomness of boost stealing, no it is not a 50% chance if you are actually good its more in the 80-90%. It clearly shows that you have no knowledge of boost stealing if you think the only applicable boost stealing is to literally boost directly at them.
Here we go again with you completely ignoring what the other side said and making false statements.
First of all, I made no statement about the "randomness of boost stealing" in the quoted segment.
2nd: 50%-80%-90% doesnt really matter. Point is, you remove yourself from the striker and if you fail he has a ton of time alone vs the goalie.
3rd: I have mentioned both boosting towards and alongside the offence. There are no other options. Your last sentense ignores what I said and seems to only stem from your need to respond and disagree no matter how little you have to say about the matter.

krazymen wrote:
boom wrote: Boost stealing was never random. But you had a level of uncertainty on yolos, because you could not be 100% sure that you would steal with it if you were aiming for somebody at the end of the steal range. Now you know that you always need to click and do not happen to spam the puck away.
You mean that you didnt know if the person would actually react in time? Yeah yoloing didnt change 1 bit. The only reason someone was spamming while yoloing is because they were scared that the guy would resteal it and then give the OTHER team a breakaway.
Yes, on yolos as last man. No, on offensive yolos.
People still spam it nowadays during yolos, they spam it on their zealot which doesnt launch the puck away try it.
I have to admit that people have become much more proficient at controlling their spam.


krazymen wrote:
boom wrote: Yes, great to crush pubs. Fairly useless in any reasonably high level game...
Do you even play this game? -water
krazymen wrote:Boost stealing was constantly used by some players in such a manner that it was very precise and powerful in its execution against someone that was oblivious with the stealing range of the ability.
Are you telling me that top level NA defenders are "oblivious" of the stealing range of the ability?
krazymen wrote:
boom wrote:
krazymen wrote:Another great strategy used by defenders were offensively boosting for a steal in order to clear, lets say on a 2v1 you can either block the passing line or be agressive on the player, usually youd pick a player and boost at him before he could react and pass the puck and it was more much succesful when the boost was actually a threat rather than simply a movement speed upgrade.
Practically, there is absolutely 0 change in using this tactic. Clicking once after boosting is not a feat that is unachievable by humans...
The difficulty in this has always been the timing and aim of the boost. The added click is pretty much irrelevant..
I guess ill just copy paste what i said up top It clearly shows that you have no knowledge of boost stealing if you think the additional STEAL doesnt do anything. If you were in a click battle and for 1 click you had 2 steal and the other guy had 1 steal do you really think it wouldnt have a different outcome?
I would admit that I have limited knowledge, if you are able to answer me the following questions:
What is the cooldown between steals when clicking?
Was there a cooldown on a click steal after you stole with boost?

And even if we were to establish that I have no clue about the mechanics of zh, the question lingers, if there really is the difference you claim there is or if it is just all in your head.
The only thing I know is that there has been no observable change in the frequency of the occurance and success rate of the situation you described in your first post in any game I have played or watched after the removal of boost steal.


krazymen wrote:
boom wrote: You can make the exact argument against boost steal: "In the past, the game was so dumbed down that you did not even need to click to steal."
Except that you did because boost steal has a big cooldown on it which makes it a very rare ressource that you need to manage? what you just said doesnt make sense here. In fact the clicking right now is dumbed down since its pretty much a whole bunch of spam.
You still need to manage your boost. And you were still better off spamming in most situations before the removal of boost steal.
Sure the game has changed, but the impact has been negligble. You are speaking here as if the game is broken now.


krazymen wrote:
boom wrote: 10 or so sentences ago you claimed that after the boost steal was removed the meta evolved into spam clicking through the defence. Make up your mind, please!
it didnt "evolve" the meta the meta got dumbed down. Very different.
Point of view...



On a side note, what is the usual ping of most NA players?
Not that I have any chart on EU players' connections but it seems like sub 30ms is common enough and even sub 20. And it feels like the Frenchies are all running around with single digit pings -.-
I really cannot see how the removal of boost steal would matter so much unless you are all playing with some absurd delay.
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Re: Bring back Z steal?

Post by Watermelon » Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:52 pm

BoooM wrote:every single time you fail your boost steal, you leave the striker with plenty of time in front of and only the goalie as an obstacle.
This is false. You are thinking only about the "yolo boost towards the puck holder from the front and hope you come away with the puck", but actually most good defenders will get on top of the puckholder, both of them skating in the same direction, and the defender boosts out (towards his own net or slightly skewed to the side) while spamming. Without the extra guaranteed steal from the boost, it is actually quite difficult to rip the puck out from someone who is dribbling efficiently and has superior ping, regardless of your timing.

And to answer your ping question, I play the majority of my games at 75 to 85ms (central). West is 8 to 20 or so, east is 95 to 115. You will find these numbers fairly representative of NA players in terms of how ther ping varies from server to server, discounting the fact that central is almost exclusively played so central players have a major advantage not being accounted for.

There is also a clear difference in playstyles from NA to EU. It is not racist or bigoted to refer to it in this kind of argument. It is relevant.
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Re: Bring back Z steal?

Post by krazymen » Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:57 pm

The average ping on NA depends a lot on the server, but i guess it would be somewhere in the 50s if you took everyone on central. I also never said that eu had no good spammers, I said that you specifically probably didnt play against good spammers if it was so easy to spam the puck away. Also saying that boost stealing failing leaves the offense on a 1 on 1 against goalie is wrong unless you do it in a stupid way, you wanna use your boost towards the goalie and clear it at the same time that way if you fail you have a backup plan being between the offense and goalie, 50% might as well be random if half the time you succeed and half the time you dont according to you and its not boosting alongside the offense you boost before he gets on top of you where the radius of the steal is available. As far as my statement making no sense, i dont really see it not making sense, its an argument to bring back boost steal it is completely relevant. I also never said that top players were oblivious to the boost steal radius, what Im saying is that high level league games usually has 4 rounds of players and not all of them will be knowledgeable in every aspect of the game or they will be but wont be able to execute that in game, which is where your strong suit whatever it may be can help you win the game. As far as the cool downs I admit that i do not know them by heart, I think the normal steal is about half a second cd, and the boost steal is the same cd as boost which is probably around 3-6 seconds cd, hover your mouse over the abiltiies once youve used them, and you can steal and boost at the same time. The last point is true, you still have to manage your boost but it is strictly position wise, theres nothing else to it. I just want to make something clear, I do not think that boost steal is broken in any way, I think that boost steal increases the mechanic diversity of the game which is good imo. Sorry for the paragraph not being organized I am kind of lazy.
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Re: Bring back Z steal?

Post by McDoudles » Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:09 pm

I guess I'm gonna drop my opinion aswell..

I think NA has always been more about clicking than EU. I don't know the reason for it (might be because of the ping or because different players forced different playstyles). It still was fun for me to play on both servers, even though the lag was super shit on NA, back before themusic and blizz patched it.
Lately I rarely play on NA. The playstyle got alot more about clicking and spamming (as mentioned before). While I'm able to adapt to it on EU, I'm not on NA. Not because players on NA do it better, but because my ping is still this much worse (Also mentioned before that it's harder to play against a style like that with a higher ping). Additionally, there seem to be more players on NA trying to spam through you, making it a less enjoyable game for me to play on this server.

On EU the playstyle shifted to more spamming aswell. It started long before the steal got patched out about 3 months ago, but it got even worse after it in my opinion. As I said before, I can adapt to it as a defender aswell as in offense, but it's less fun to play for me.
One reason is, that I dislike clicking this much. Another is that spamming often seem to result in chaotic and "random" situations. It's possible to keep the puck under control while spamming to some extend, but especially in lower tier games (low tier IH/priv) it feels like people shoot it far away into clean areas or even create turnovers cause they mess up the spam defensively and offensively. They try to copy a click-heavy playstyle, but miss out on easier plays like passing, sniping or simple dribbling. This results in new players that are all about clicking, but have no vision, movement, passing and all the other attributes that older players have. I'm astonished how many new players are clicking fast and accurately, but then miss or don't take an easy pass that I would hit 98/100 times. This results in, as krazy mentioned, less diversity in gameplay and mechanics.

I am not sure how way the Z steal effects this. I'd say that the steal gave an opportunity to the defender, so that the boost has a (more or less) reliable steal that is hard to resteal. In the past there haven't been as many situations as today, where as a defender, I had to sit on top of a striker to spam it to the side because he tried to spamwalk through me. Defending was much more (not only) about covering pass lanes/angles..
On offense I doubt the z-steal changes much, except for the fact that yolo boosts to steal a defender might get easier as they are now.

To sum it up, if the z-steal reduces the spamming or makes it less powerful so other options are more useful, I'm all for it.
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Re: Bring back Z steal?

Post by MoS » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:46 am

Watermelon wrote:
BoooM wrote:every single time you fail your boost steal, you leave the striker with plenty of time in front of and only the goalie as an obstacle.
This is false. You are thinking only about the "yolo boost towards the puck holder from the front and hope you come away with the puck", but actually most good defenders will get on top of the puckholder, both of them skating in the same direction, and the defender boosts out (towards his own net or slightly skewed to the side) while spamming. Without the extra guaranteed steal from the boost, it is actually quite difficult to rip the puck out from someone who is dribbling efficiently and has superior ping, regardless of your timing.

And to answer your ping question, I play the majority of my games at 75 to 85ms (central). West is 8 to 20 or so, east is 95 to 115. You will find these numbers fairly representative of NA players in terms of how ther ping varies from server to server, discounting the fact that central is almost exclusively played so central players have a major advantage not being accounted for.

There is also a clear difference in playstyles from NA to EU. It is not racist or bigoted to refer to it in this kind of argument. It is relevant.
If you boost steal towards your net (and even slightly skewed) while spamming the puck you risk being restolen, boost steal or not. If you get restolen and miss it, you end up being far from the opponent who gets more room for his moves which will happen in an amount of case that is sufficient for me to consider this defensive play risky, the offensive players ends up with a boost (plus the opportunity to luckily and/or skillfully resteal with the steal attached) and room to play around you and your goalie. Boost-steal or not I'd rather stay on the offensive player and accompany him, spamming to the side when I get a chance than take this risk.


My point is putting boost-steal back might mitigate the massive-spam meta (and I am really not sure about that), but will bring back dubious drives and the luck and/or skill in some case (but still overpowered in my opinion) for the offensive players, and I don't think it's worth it.

Overall it might be about a difference in playstyle indeed - and then apart from having two versions of the game one half of the community is gonna get pretty pissed.
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Re: Bring back Z steal?

Post by ilvsntrs » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:58 am

such small change, yet massive walls of text
it would be funny to bring back Z steal... with the original radius :mrgreen: , just to see how messy and random the game could become
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Re: Bring back Z steal?

Post by DerrocK » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:24 pm

Z is all you needed back in the day :)
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Re: Bring back Z steal?

Post by BoooM » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:24 pm

Watermelon wrote:
BoooM wrote:
every single time you fail your boost steal, you leave the striker with plenty of time in front of and only the goalie as an obstacle.


This is false. You are thinking only about the "yolo boost towards the puck holder from the front and hope you come away with the puck" (1), but actually most good defenders will get on top of the puckholder, both of them skating in the same direction, and the defender boosts out (towards his own net or slightly skewed to the side) while spamming. Without the extra guaranteed steal from the boost, it is actually quite difficult to rip the puck out from someone who is dribbling efficiently and has superior ping (2), regardless of your timing.

And to answer your ping question, I play the majority of my games at 75 to 85ms (3) (central). West is 8 to 20 or so, east is 95 to 115. You will find these numbers fairly representative of NA players in terms of how ther ping varies from server to server, discounting the fact that central is almost exclusively played so central players have a major advantage not being accounted for.

There is also a clear difference in play styles from NA to EU. (4) It is not racist or bigoted to refer to it in this kind of argument. It is relevant.



(1) No, I certainly did not think that.
[+] From the pre-patch discussion thread
http://www.zealothockey.net/forum/viewt ... =30#p22629
BoooM wrote:
This may be just a difference in philosophy, but in my opinion, removing yourself from the striker as a defender for whatever reason is a risk. Boosting away from him and getting the last steal this way may work 4/5 times or even more often but that one time he manages to steal just when you boost away, you gift the striker a 1v1 against the goalie. Spamming to the side while remaining on top of him seems like the universally better choice.
Yes, the best thing the striker can do is indeed get a steal and turn away from your steal range right away, which is something you can try to counter with boost steal. However, if you remain on top of him and he manages to vap steal from you, you as a defender still provide a level of difficulty for him to score. At the very least you are blocking a shot lane. Often times you would even still be able to contest the puck.
[+] From this thread
BoooM wrote: You only need to stay on top of the striker and spam away yourself. He can't shoot through you, he has trouble controlling the puck due to your spam, and more often than not you would be able to spam it to the side. This has always been the optimal way to prevent somebody that tries to go through you from scoring. Boost steal never mattered in this situation. Sure you could try to boost steal away from him and end up with the puck, but this is just granting him breakaways and basically free goals on a regular basis.
[+] From this thread
BoooM wrote:What a completely unfounded and plain stupid assumption to claim that only NA people can spam. Of course, you cannot mindlessly spam away and hope to score. Of course, top strikers control their spam very well. But as a defender, if you remain on top of them you will almost always have an opportunity to spam the puck away from them. In almost all situations, your sticks will have a large enough distance that if you spam to the opposite side of their stick, you will spam it away. Even in those situations where you fail to spam it away, you create a layer of difficulty for the striker in front of the crease. On the other hand, every single time you fail your boost steal, you leave the striker with plenty of time in front of and only the goalie as an obstacle.
[+] The argument worded differently
MoS wrote: If you boost steal towards your net (and even slightly skewed) while spamming the puck you risk being restolen, boost steal or not. If you get restolen and miss it, you end up being far from the opponent who gets more room for his moves which will happen in an amount of case that is sufficient for me to consider this defensive play risky, the offensive players ends up with a boost (plus the opportunity to luckily and/or skillfully resteal with the steal attached) and room to play around you and your goalie. Boost-steal or not I'd rather stay on the offensive player and accompany him, spamming to the side when I get a chance than take this risk.


(2) I do not really agree on the efficiency of dribbling (in the case of spamming) having any impact one's success rate to spam away the puck as a defender. The only case in which you actually have no chance to spam to the side as a defender is if you end up behind the striker. No matter how you spam then you will end up passing back to him. This however, is a positional mistake you've already made as a defender and would hardly be resolved by boost steal anyway, since even then the striker has the time to click or boost resteal you.
But I can see how having a significant ping disadvantage matters in your example. I can imagine that the high risk, high reward of boost stealing could turn out to become the better option if you have a high delay.

(3) Honestly, 75-85ms sounds quite painful. Not sure I would have much fun (or success) having to def with such a delay, even less so if the striker has a better ping. 95+ms would be a reason to quit for me and is the reason why I do not play on NA.

(4) From what I have seen, it is true that the play styles on EU and NA are fairly different. I wonder how much this has to do with the success rates of different tactics in high vs low ping environments.

krazymen wrote: The average ping on NA depends a lot on the server, but i guess it would be somewhere in the 50s (1) if you took everyone on central. I also never said that eu had no good spammers, I said that you specifically probably didnt play against good spammers if it was so easy to spam the puck away (2). Also saying that boost stealing failing leaves the offense on a 1 on 1 against goalie is wrong unless you do it in a stupid way, you wanna use your boost towards the goalie and clear it at the same time that way if you fail you have a backup plan being between the offense and goalie (3), 50% might as well be random if half the time you succeed and half the time you dont according to you and its not boosting alongside the offense you boost before he gets on top of you where the radius of the steal is available (4). As far as my statement making no sense, i dont really see it not making sense, its an argument to bring back boost steal it is completely relevant. I also never said that top players were oblivious to the boost steal radius, what Im saying is that high level league games usually has 4 rounds of players and not all of them will be knowledgeable in every aspect of the game or they will be but wont be able to execute that in game, which is where your strong suit whatever it may be can help you win the game (5). As far as the cool downs I admit that i do not know them by heart, I think the normal steal is about half a second cd, and the boost steal is the same cd as boost which is probably around 3-6 seconds cd, hover your mouse over the abiltiies once youve used them, and you can steal and boost at the same time. The last point is true, you still have to manage your boost but it is strictly position wise, theres nothing else to it. I just want to make something clear, I do not think that boost steal is broken in any way, I think that boost steal increases the mechanic diversity of the game which is good imo (6). Sorry for the paragraph not being organized I am kind of lazy.


(1) I have no clue how much a ping in the 50s would affect the game for somebody. I either have far less or far more depending on whether I play EU or NA. However, the ping disparity watermelon mentioned seems like a huge issue. I cannot properly judge how much the importance of boost steal changes with high ping and high ping disparity between players. In games filled with low ping players, I do not see any issues that have appeared after boost steal was removed. I also have not heard of anybody on EU having voiced an opposing opinion.

(2) Those two statements are effectively the same.

(3) The issue I have with this is that if you get restolen you will normally end up barely outside of steal range of the striker even if you turn right after losing the puck. This way the striker has "a lot" of room to dribble. Your options become either guessing / moving with him to defend a corner or moving towards him to steal and thus exposing both corners of the goal. Either way, the striker gets more options and more time compared to a situation in which you remained on top of him.
In the thread, it has even been suggested that you boost slightly to the side. If you get restolen in this situation, you actually put yourself out of position (even if ever so slightly), making it easier for the striker to score.
Lastly, I have not experienced any imbalance either way in this situation with or without steal on boost.

(4) This seems highly dependent on meta and the ability of the defender and the striker to predict each other's actions. If the striker turns the puck the last possible moment before coming in range of your boost steal, you will inevitably end up wasting your boost, if you were planning on executing this tactic. Doing this seems like a gamble, especially so the higher your ping is.

(5) I agree that you could set yourself apart from lesser players this way. Now, you need to set yourself apart in a different way. But honestly, boost stealing was a sub-optimal choice in my opinion. Additionally, I do think that practically the same actions are still possible with click and boost that were with boost steal.

(6) Sure the game has changed, but I do not think that any imbalance was created this way. And people like me, who considered boost stealing a sub-optimal or unnecessary choice and thus did not rely on it, would not see any effect on the diversity of the game.e spam it out, make a pass out rinse repeat.
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Re: Bring back Z steal?

Post by krazymen » Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:32 pm

1) Actually mcdoudles posted on this thread not too long ago.

2) So youre saying that you represent the whole eu server in terms of skills regarding dribbling? That seems like a completely unfounded and plain stupid assumption to claim.

3-4) That is a disadvantage of boost steal, it doesnt mean that we have to remove it completely because of that? The important difference between a normal click and a boost steal is the radius which is why you can use it without getting restolen when in front of the zealot. No this is not a gamble, like every other strategy in the game, it is a calculated risk that you take. It is not random, I could say that for every other thing in the game, staying on top of the zealot might be a gamble because your internet might suddenly have a spike and you lose the battle. Staying on the zealot to counter spam might be a gamble because you dont have a real good chance of removing the puck against a better player and the goalie might be scared and make a bad move because of the hectic battle happening in front of him. As long as the strategy is consistently successful the gamble factor of that strategy is irrelevant.

5) At high level play, every little advantage you can get is a huge advantage. Like i said above the steal range is not exactly the same, so its easier to get the puck stolen back and thus more risky to do.

6) that is true that it was not op at all, I agree with you, however the style definitely switched to a more heavy spam game which has no diversity at all. Go on offense spam it in, go back on defense spam it out, make a pass out rinse repeat.
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