ZH Goalie Test Map

Post suggestions you have here that relate to the game's mechanics
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Re: ZH Goalie Test Map

Post by OzyWho » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:24 am

I played the map once. And I loved it.
It was really fun.
But it didn't feel competitive enough for it to stay permanent, if implemented, so I didn't think about it anymore.

I mean... it was fun, but it didn't feel "right", you get what i mean? :roll:
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Re: ZH Goalie Test Map

Post by Slide » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:45 am

I feel like the goalie isnt a goalie anymore.. The "easy play" as field was up since large of the net is increase, snipe are the easiest thing to do ( new player usually always snipe ) in this game but they WERE hard to master*, with these changing i feel like sniping is going to be easy for everyone even tho you aren't that good at snipe.
I Think that the S stop should stay like that since, that's the most skillfull thing as goalie at the moment, being capable to boost and stop is very hard to master and gives goalie so much possibility ( that's actually the thing that made me play goalie a lot on EU just after that goalie S patch ( EUDL3) so i might be a bit not objective with that.
Having double boost as goalie : i think that's the point i'm totally not agree with, that wont help THAT much in net,gotta increase the "ramdom save" like just boosting on both post to save a C or a double C on a 2vs1 and just do that mecanics without thinking of what attacker are going to do. Actually i feel like goalie's not that bad since you have to be in attacker's brain to know if he's going to pass or not, by having 1 boost you cant fail it,and in this game if you fail that's a goal,that's what i loved as goalie.
About skater boost steal, we already talked about that a lot so i'm not very agree with it but i dont mind since good player might use it perfectly, i just think that's sad for medium defenser ( probes ) that are going to boost steal when doing mistake, very frustrated for attack.

Thanks for reading even tho that's my first very negative post about a patch about ZH in 2,5 years.
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Re: ZH Goalie Test Map

Post by themusic » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:22 am

Its not a patch, say what you will :)
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Re: ZH Goalie Test Map

Post by OzyWho » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:37 am

So slide is thinking that goalies would more random boost because they have 2 boosts? That is a bold prediction that can easily be tested by playing more games on the test map - as I am sure some people have.

I mainly use boost in combination with S key to get back into position vs jukers - that is the one thing that makes playing Goalie enjoyable for me. That being said: double boost + S key would lead not not even slide being able to juke me, kappa. :mrgreen:
I don't know what about the S key is changed, but please don't ever remove the possibility to Z+S vs jukes :(

Only other thing that boost is used for is vs one timers.
The thing about one timers for ME is - I am too used to press S after boosting, so i sometimes don't catch one timers because i pressed S too early after boosting. A double boost would make me possible to fix my error.
Also a double boost would give goalies a chance to actually hold 1v2 pass->one timer pas back -> one timer shot.

All these things I said that a double boost possibility would make me a better goalie - they are all because the 2nd boost give me the option to fix my original error. This is a competitive game. I see no reason to give goalies unlimited chances to fix their errors. Why just 2 boosts and not 50?
The original one boost is MORE than enough. You could argue that even that one wouldn't be needed if one timers didn't exist.

HOWEVER. I do love the bigger net + crease + stick, because attacks are no longer so clumped up. I really really do love that. But if the double boost is to compensate the bigger net - why not just make goalie himself bigger (not just his stick)? For me that would be the ideal.


Sorry for this wall of text from a not-even-probe-goalie. For a fun thought - why not, instead of 2nd boost, make it possible to throw your stick away as goalie? :D
That would feel very realistic at those rage moments when the 2nd boost is actually needed :lol:
(obviously i am not serious lol)
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Rationalize emotional response in the present experience.
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Re: ZH Goalie Test Map

Post by SilentFate » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:57 am

OzyWho wrote:So slide is thinking that goalies would more random boost because they have 2 boosts? That is a bold prediction that can easily be tested by playing more games on the test map - as I am sure some people have.

I mainly use boost in combination with S key to get back into position vs jukers - that is the one thing that makes playing Goalie enjoyable for me. That being said: double boost + S key would lead not not even slide being able to juke me, kappa. :mrgreen:
I don't know what about the S key is changed, but please don't ever remove the possibility to Z+S vs jukes :(

Only other thing that boost is used for is vs one timers.
The thing about one timers for ME is - I am too used to press S after boosting, so i sometimes don't catch one timers because i pressed S too early after boosting. A double boost would make me possible to fix my error.
Also a double boost would give goalies a chance to actually hold 1v2 pass->one timer pas back -> one timer shot.

All these things I said that a double boost possibility would make me a better goalie - they are all because the 2nd boost give me the option to fix my original error. This is a competitive game. I see no reason to give goalies unlimited chances to fix their errors. Why just 2 boosts and not 50?
The original one boost is MORE than enough. You could argue that even that one wouldn't be needed if one timers didn't exist.

HOWEVER. I do love the bigger net + crease + stick, because attacks are no longer so clumped up. I really really do love that. But if the double boost is to compensate the bigger net - why not just make goalie himself bigger (not just his stick)? For me that would be the ideal.


Sorry for this wall of text from a not-even-probe-goalie. For a fun thought - why not, instead of 2nd boost, make it possible to throw your stick away as goalie? :D
That would feel very realistic at those rage moments when the 2nd boost is actually needed :lol:
(obviously i am not serious lol)
u dont understand whats the problem... I can see ure public goalie.. I agree with slide in everything!! IMO goalie atm is good balanced and making goal bigger + double boost will just increase RNG of goalies... I feel like my stick is in some situations not big enough even tho my position is good so making goals bigger will destroy everything imo but whatea..
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Re: ZH Goalie Test Map

Post by LittleDicky » Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:14 am

It will be only as random as you make it. No one tells you to randomly jump around goal like a monkey.
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Re: ZH Goalie Test Map

Post by SilentFate » Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:50 am

goal will be bigger
stick wont be bigger

=
rng
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Re: ZH Goalie Test Map

Post by Vapour » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:18 pm

SilentFate wrote:
themusic wrote:Current set of changes:

1. "S" stop is reverted to old "S" for goalies (where you slide a bit more)
2. 10% larger goal, 7% larger crease
3. 15% larger goalie stick
4. Goalie boost now has 2 charges (12sec CD/charge)
5. Goalie movespeed change (+10% inside crease, )
6. Skater boost CD reduced by 20% (so 8 seconds total)
7. Skater now has boost steal
8. -11% movement speed with puck possession (decay over 1.5 seconds) for both skaters and goalie

#8 people have been mentioning for a while, curious to see how it works in gameplay. I think it may fit in well with these other changes.

PS: There is a bug in ZH where if you skate to the right you move 1% slower than if you skate to the left. I corrected the issue in this test map. Not really noticeable, but pretty lame.
goal will be bigger
stick wont be bigger

=
rng
Not a fan of the "-10% Goalie movement outside crease"
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Re: ZH Goalie Test Map

Post by krazymen » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:38 pm

"10% larger net 15% larger stick" can you not read?
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Re: ZH Goalie Test Map

Post by themusic » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:27 pm

Here's my observations and overview of these changes. They are not randomly thrown in there for testing just for luls.

Summary of why the changes are being tested:
The current goalie is a decent unit as it is, but the mechanics are pretty shallow and the reward for just sitting there is very high. In most competitive pvp games, this is something game design generally tries to stay away from. The unit you control should be interesting, fun, and have different levels of meta/counter-meta. The idea of the changes here are to add some depth to the unit, make it more interesting to play, and not completely nurf or buff the overall effectiveness of the goalie.

Double Boost:
Yea the double boosting is not OP really after people started playing for real with it, it ultimately provides a second chance in some cases where reaction time is available (like a quick boost back to previous location, or a desperation save..) otherwise it really just adds more situational meta like leaving net to retrieve a puck or creating more interesting outlet passes. More things are possible for sure, and i'm sure i haven't even seen half the things you could do with it.

Bigger Net & Stick & Crease:
The bigger net and bigger stick does open the net up slightly, but also requires the goalie to be more active and not reward just staticly sitting in one spot for an entire play until its cleared out.

Sniping:
From a geometrical standpoint, snipes from top or bottom angles have been nurfed and snipes in the middle have been buffed. I feel like this is a change for the better, as sniping currently has a very low success rate (in more competitive play). Putting more emphasis on defense is also not a bad thing (defense becomes more important especially when attackers are in the middle in front of the net).

One-timing & Passing on offense:
One-timing and passing have been buffed with the larger net, though arguably only a little (remember the goalie has 2 boosts, the crease is larger, and the goalie does have more movement speed). Still a buff though, and i think this is a good change, we have to remember this is a change for BOTH teams, and not just you as goalie, or your team alone. It also promotes teamplay :)

New S stop for goalie:
Currently in the test map, the "S" when you move+S slows you down how it used to back in the day (not the immediate stop). The Boost+S cuts the boost short like it currently does in the live version (the boost+S combo did not change). The reason this change was tested was to attempt to take the best of both worlds. In higher latency games especially, hitting "S" in the current live version has a much higher rate of inconsistency. Sometimes you will slide more, sometimes less, because of the way it works cutting your momentum by 50% and exponentially slowing you to a stop. When you move+S in the test map it stops you like it does a normal zealot "S". This also opens up the ability to bounce off the post at a much more effective rate and using "S" to top completely cut off your momentum at a random latency delay. Hopefully that made sense...

-2 seconds cooldown for boost:
Still not sure about this one. I don't really see any issues with it at all, kind of nice having this progress a bit faster.

Goalie speed increase/decrease:
There was a slight buff to speed inside the crease to make relocating a bit easier with a larger crease and net. To prevent offensive goalies and having goalies take on a more aggressive offensive mindset, their speed was reduced to 20% outside the crease. This has a confining feel, and increases the risk when leaving the crease. Especially combined with double boost, i think this is pretty much required and honestly a good change. It also makes pulling the goalie actually have a purpose, which it should. (Though i think the goalie should move at 4x speed to the wall or instantly swap out for a zealot, but thats a different topic).

Boost Steal
Don't really care either way on this one. It does buff defense a bit which is nice with the wider sniping angles from mid. It still feels a bit random though, so maybe the answer is making it feel less random rather than removing it completely? idk

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