Ways to make Salary mean something

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Ways to make Salary mean something

Post by Hunter » Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:51 pm

Everyone wants salary to mean something. Post ideas for it to mean something

I think people would be determined for a high salary if they could buy a goal song or a skin. I think a cool ZHL skin would be a zealot jersey with a name and number.
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Re: Ways to make Salary mean something

Post by Kyle » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:37 am

Only way I see it meaning something is if it's somehow assigned to the player based on performance, rather than negotiated. I proposed a possible formula based on ZH points in this thread, but Watermelon very rightly pointed out that it fails to acknowledge defensive play styles and goaltenders. Something along those lines is the only way I think salary's going to be meaningful, though. Using salary to buy a goal horn or skin is only useful once, and that's if the player hasn't already donated to get the skin/song they want. After that point, it goes back to being meaningless.
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Re: Ways to make Salary mean something

Post by OptimusReim » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:07 am

Kyle wrote: Using salary to buy a goal horn or skin is only useful once, and that's if the player hasn't already donated to get the skin/song they want.
The goal horns take up a lot of map space so I don't think they can implement that out without a donation. Plus, Reputed is too busy working on the oval rink that's coming Soon TM

But yes, the salary is meaningless. I think we need to stop thinking about how to make salary important to the players. The salary's purpose to my understanding is to keep teams from becoming unfairly stacked. I'd like to go back to a suggestion Phaneuf once had because I feel it still holds weight.

Instead of salary, we use a point system. When drafting players (assuming it's a 10 round draft) the players picked in the first round are worth 10 points, and the next 9, etc. This way player's values are decided by their draft position. A team would have a total of 55 points spent in the draft, and I suppose they could have an extra 5 pts to pick up free agents or add in those points to trades.

Teams would always have to maintain a certain value, so if a team wants to trade for a 10 star player they would need to drop/trade two 5 star players, or an 8 star and a 2 star, etc. this means if you somehow land 4 10-star players then you won't have a lot of salary to work with.

That's the gist of the idea, and I think it's good to avoid team stacking. More teams in the league will have the talent distributed properly so you won't see teams like Maha, Vapour, Peter TK/Irish, Critt, Ruckle, Cerv. Unfortunately there is little to no incentive to trade away good players since you can't trade draft picks and one for one player deals are a risk. Until an owner can do more besides draft a team, it will be difficult to keep the same people as owners and teams together.

I'd wonder what Wild's take on this idea would be
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Re: Ways to make Salary mean something

Post by Droplets » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:19 am

Remer, however I see the downside of a bad owner to the point system. Especially I heard that there will be new players that haven't even really entered the In-house community applying to be owners next season. This will bring on the possibility that they draft who they "think" is worthy of 10 star pick, but ends up getting a 2 star level player, after a while into the league realizing their mistake, they wish to trade the player away to build some depth to the team, but no team will then deem this player 10 stars.
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Re: Ways to make Salary mean something

Post by l)arkangel » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:26 am

Honestly, I can't think of anything that people would really care about a high salary for. Majority of players are just in it to win it. Therefore, I believe majority of people would still take the salary cut if it meant they could get a better team.

IMO, benefits of salary should be a low second priority and making salary work in a fashion that prevents stacked teams should be first priority. I don't think we're completely far off from that. Negotiating contracts is something that just needs to go. I agree with Kyle that there should be a pre-determined salary. I don't necessarily agree with it being based on ZH points due to flaws he pointed out.

My idea is to have salary be determined by draft pick # (not round #). If we do a keeper league, salary could be determined simply by priority they were kept at (1st choice to keep would have a salary of 175, 2nd would have a salary of 150, and 3rd would have a salary of 125 or something like that). All others would go to free agency and players who did not play in the previous season would automatically be 40 (or 50?) salary to sign. Players who DID play in the previous season could have their salary based on their ZHL points/game (minimum of 3 games played; less than three games played and the player would be assigned a salary of 50) for the previous season (I know I said I don't like basing it off this, but I can't think of any other way to do it). Goalies would need a slightly different formula.

To summarize:
The main purpose of salary should not be the benefits, it should be to prevent stacked teams.
Salary amount should be pre-determined by draft pick #.
Free agents salary could be based on previous season points/game (minimum of three games played).
Goalies will need a slightly different formula possibly based off of goals allowed/game (minimum of three games) and W/L or determine the rank by comparing to other goalies' numbers.

nija'd by reimer.
@drops: we could simply add in a points/game or some rank system based on previous season stats to advise new owners to who might be a good player.
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Re: Ways to make Salary mean something

Post by OptimusReim » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:00 am

Droplets wrote:Remer, however I see the downside of a bad owner to the point system. Especially I heard that there will be new players that haven't even really entered the In-house community applying to be owners next season. This will bring on the possibility that they draft who they "think" is worthy of 10 star pick, but ends up getting a 2 star level player,
Remer pls.
Look at Genius' team, regardless of a point system, bad owners will have bad seasons. Also another example of a draft bust is Pants. For the most part the top 6 picks were (not in this order but) Kurt, Bruce, Maha, Cerv, somebody I forget and essentially Guerrila. I think it's fair to say those are all really good players that you can build a team around, especially Cerv
Droplets wrote:Especially I heard that there will be new players that haven't even really entered the In-house community applying to be owners next season..
You have players that improved a ton or are sleepers like Darkangel, Babyjesus, CountryKen, you, etc so it is not unreasonable to imagine new players can improve or are already really good. I've always felt the IH concept had a clique stigma to it and if we put ourselves in a box then the community won't grow quickly and the skill gap between pubs and IH will increase

l)arkange wrote: My idea is to have salary be determined by draft pick # (not round #)

nija'd by reimer.
@drops: we could simply add in a points/game or some rank system based on previous season stats to advise new owners to who might be a good player.
I like your idea, and also get rekt droplets
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Re: Ways to make Salary mean something

Post by TeeKay » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:07 pm

For strikers tourneys we did a really cool draft which made salary very important and strategic much more than it is in ZHL. Cerv and durko can attest to this. I'll post it when I get time.
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Re: Ways to make Salary mean something

Post by TeeKay » Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:49 pm

Here we go. Long post warning.


*What we did with a ton of Strikers Weekly Tournaments:

Captain Team Budget Draft – Captains get “$20” to spend on 3 players. Each player is bid on until 1 team captain gets the player. Max that can be spent on a player is $14. If two captains bid $14 on 1 player, Admin does /random to see who gets player. Must spend at least $1 on each player. The draft order is only relevant in terms of whoever is listed first gets to pick what player is bid on next (then after that 2nd draft order gets to pick 2nd player to be bid on).


Owner's Budget Draft


How this could work for Zealot Hockey League draft:


Positives:

+ Better than any salary based on formula because it’s a ‘free market approach’ that shows the owner’s real opinions of a player’s value.
+ Owners can get certain players they want, although they may have to overpay to get those players and it may hurt them in the depth of their team.

Negatives:

- Owners throw the system a loop, at least on the surface when there is a disparity in talent among the captains. A potential work around to this is have the league admin assign salaries to the captains based on their talent, or just set an amount per captain (the more likely of the option).


Nuts and Bolts:

In a ZHL salary draft, you would set up the draft order and set a team budget per owner. Instead having the first pick, the first owner would be able to pick which player to be bid on next. All the owners have 45 seconds to bid on a player, the highest bid gets the player. The max bid available would depend on the amount of salary remaining and the amount mandated as the minimum for the remaining players on the roster (see below).

If next league we go to 8-10 teams with 8 players min, 10 players max, then I purpose we have a system with $1000 salary (easy round number). Bids must be in increments of $5.

* Note that top player, 2nd player, etc doesn’t mean it has to be your first pick since captains can choose anyone on the draft order to put up for bidding at any time.

Owner – Minimum $175 (an arbitrary $ amount but a decent guess looking at the current captains that they should have a high locked amount. The 2nd player on the team will go for much higher than the $100 minimum as well so a locked $175 should be a pretty decent #).
Top Player – Min. $110 (unless its an owner, than the $175 number)
2nd Player - Min. $100
3rd Player – Min. $80
4th Player – Min. $70
5th Player – Min. $60
6th Player – Min. $50
7th Player – Min. $40
8th Player – Min. $30
Any additional player – Min $30

If you ran 8 players at the minimum amount, you would have 665 salary. However, obviously if someone puts a player up for bid people LIKELY won’t win the bid for the minimum amount since other people will bid the player up. You also need to look at the most that an owner can bid for a player (based on the amounts he has to pay the remaining spots on the roster)

Example: First selection – maha puts Guerrila up for bid.

Dirty bids 80
Hunter bids 100
Maha bids 115
Bruce bids 140
Dirty bids 145
Maha bids 160
Dirty bids 180
Maha bids 200
Dirty bids 215

No other bids – Dirty wins with 215.

* Note in this case, if Dirty (if he isn’t picking himself as a player-owner) wants to make Guerrila his top player he could pay up to $570, whereas Maha (if he is a player-owner) can only bid $495 on Guerrila.

This prevents owners from bidding for 3-4 top players at the expense of the rest of their roster. However, getting 3-4 top players could also backfire horribly if they have to pay the minimum for the rest of their players, and the other owners can get good players for $5 above the minimum.



--- Coupled with this: **** Important

Free Agency needs to be re-evaluated. I believe that having salary needs to be more like waivers in fantasy football where whoever has the most salary should be able to get the best Free Agent available, not Burn signing with Korhal for a ridiculous $40 (no knock on them, just a knock on the system that let them do that).

Solution: A player must post that he wants to be a free agent on the forums. Then, the owners have 1 day to submit if they are interested in that player. Then a league admin (wild, rep, teroh) or a non-bidding owner holds a live bid for the interested owners. Highest bid gets the free agent. I think this change alone would make salary infinitely more valuable than any skins could by assigning a purpose to keeping salary.



Conclusion:
The salary draft + the free agency bidding window (per each free agent) would make salary much more strategic and balanced, in my opinion. It would also reduce the flat $110 for first round, $100 for second round, etc by letting owners pay their real market value for players. I think this would make salary = balance not salary = incentives.
Last edited by TeeKay on Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ways to make Salary mean something

Post by l)arkangel » Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:26 pm

Seems pretty reasonable. How would trades work? Would players salaries be set in stone once they've been drafted? Would there be a re-draft every season in this format?
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Re: Ways to make Salary mean something

Post by TeeKay » Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:42 pm

l)arkangel wrote:Seems pretty reasonable. How would trades work? Would players salaries be set in stone once they've been drafted? Would there be a re-draft every season in this format?
Ya I would say that salaries would be locked in after a player is drafted. The current system is to add a sense of free market player value, but this wouldn't be necessary because we would already do that up front in the draft and every time there is a free agent. Also, if a player is released they can be bid on again.
Locked