Ways to make Salary mean something

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Re: Ways to make Salary mean something

Post by steezysteve » Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:14 am

I'll go ahead and say it, I think the system already works and makes salary mean something.
it seems to me like the current system is close to a real draft (especially if the worst teams will draft first next season) while tk's idea is more like bidding on properties in monopoly.
It also seems important to allow salary negotiations to take place after the draft, which makes tk's plan less reasonable. For instance, when cerv wanted to be traded off of tct and held out, he was able to renegotiate his salary to some crazy amountand was then willing to play. This negotiation made the salary worth something past what it was worth bcuz of the draft and is more of a free market approach than capping salaries immediately.
as to free agency, bidding once a week on free agents sounds cool, but here's a scenario where you wouldnt want that- say it's 5 minutes to game time and your team has 3npeople online. So you can draft a free agent from the zh channel just so your team has enough to play their game. This wouldn't happenninthe free agency bid happenednonce a week and your team wouldnhave to forfeit. This will be even more likely to occur if teams are smaller next season. Furthermore, the free agent can hold out and try to get a higher salarynifthey want, using the owner's desperationntoget a better salary-free market.
anyway, sorry I argues against your guys' ideas but I thoughtnsomeone should argue the merts of the currentsystem
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Re: Ways to make Salary mean something

Post by TeeKay » Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:34 am

Ya the understaffed team is a situation I thought about and I think a solution to that could be you can play anyone who is a free agent day of game for 10 salary for that game, but then after the game they have to enter free agency and the top bid gets the free agent (the 10 salary the team spent can be put toward salary if they win the bid, but it is forfeited if they lose on the free agent). Letting a team pick up someone day of game is necessary but you also want to make the free agent not stay a free agent so that Kaio doesn't play 5 games for each team.

I would argue the validity of your cerv example though. I think salary was not actually used as a player incentive. Cerv wanted to play with Kurt or Bruce, so he made up a ridiculous salary number to hopefully force a trade. Since the team salaries are so high the team could still pay it because everyone else took a pay cut. This in no way promotes balance. especially when you could sign free agents at cerv's level (burn) for $40. It's not true market value for the players. Even if you say cerv is better than burn (debatable), he is not 7 times better/more valuable than burn. This is a huggggee problem for balance.


Your other example is that free agents can hold out for better salary but there is nothing to make them want to, and I fail to see skins as a motivation as like 1/3 of the league players already have skins and it takes away development time that rep and Leroy could be putting toward more useful game additions, and has a major upkeep


Tl;dr -- The overall point of this new system to switch the current theory where balance is created by players wanting rewards to a new theory where balance is created by free market setting player prices. Multiple top players said they would take $40 salary to win -- which sets up stacked teams.
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Re: Ways to make Salary mean something

Post by TeeKay » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:06 am

A final example is all the players reducing their salary including you Steve to "as low as it can go" (-hunter from salary thread). This isn't from any negotiations to balance the league or to incentivize players, it's to have salary so u can stack your team with free agents because the system allows it.
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Re: Ways to make Salary mean something

Post by steezysteve » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:12 am

If there is an auction on free agents, less free agents might be picked up since owners won't want to put players on the auction block just for another team to likely takethem. It makes free agency less free, sincenusually free agents have some say over which team they go to.
However, if a real sports team wants to drop anplayer, hey are then putnon an auction for the league to bid on. So if hunter had decided to cur ruckle from his roster because ruckle was afk for days, he would then go on auction to the whole league. Players that already had teams should be less fre than free agents.

for the cerv example, te salary was not a motivation to the player himself, but it put a value on him that no other teamcould match. Cerv might notbhave been worth that value but to the team it was worth it to keep our starting goalie. You're rght, a team player would have taken a paycut to try to help pay for a trade to get bruce or kurt and there should maybe be some policy to srtop that (like the 75% of original salary minimum but stronger) but that is not to say that we should cut out negotiations all together.
if paying the wrong salaries hurts a team then im sorry im not sorry but it sux to suk. A bad owner paying the wrong salaries will field a bad team, and that's fair.
I dont think skins are a good incentive either. If there was a cash prizenat the end then j thought that the salaries were proportional to how much of the prize that the player received.
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Re: Ways to make Salary mean something

Post by steezysteve » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:13 am

TeeKay wrote:A final example is all the players reducing their salary including you Steve to "as low as it can go" (-hunter from salary thread). This isn't from any negotiations to balance the league or to incentivize players, it's to have salary so u can stack your team with free agents because the system allows it.
To be fair it makes sense to pay me the minimum
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Re: Ways to make Salary mean something

Post by TeeKay » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:30 am

steezysteve wrote: It makes free agency less free, sincenusually free agents have some say over which team they go to.
Right but should it be free? Next season if it's 100% free I'm going to have myself, water Peter rep angle and critt not sign up for draft. Then boom week 1 we all sign with team Reimer City Reimers for 40 each and join Reimer vapour and stealth. That can legitimately happen with no recourse in the current system.
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Re: Ways to make Salary mean something

Post by TeeKay » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:38 am

steezysteve wrote: if paying the wrong salaries hurts a team then im sorry im not sorry but it sux to suk. A bad owner paying the wrong salaries will field a bad team, and that's fair.
You are right, it is a dumb move by owners who don't abuse the current system to stack their team by paying everyone on Their team false salaries. However it's an even dumber idea to use a system that allows owners to abuse the rules to make fairyland salaries that aren't reflective of a players actual value in the league.


^ I like that paragraph but it's complicated. Here's an ez way of saying it:

It's dumb for owners not to abuse the current system. It's more dumb for the league to use an abusable system.
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Re: Ways to make Salary mean something

Post by ooter » Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:50 pm

One thing I think people need to realize is that we should NOT be trying to emulate "real life" leagues. That won't work for a variety of reasons, primary among them is that there's simply no way to make ZHL salary mean anything close to what real money means.

The problem of not having enough players on a team is solved easily by not having a minimum price, meaning any player can be acquired for $1. This seems like such an obvious policy to me, I couldn't understand why anyone would disagree with it. I think I may understand your issue with it now though. Are you trying to have the price players are won at in auction be equal to the "salary" (toward skins and whatnot) players receive throughout the season? I don't think that's the right approach. In fact, I think we should be trying move away from yearly salary as a balancing factor as much as possible. It's simply not going to work, not only because many players don't care about their salary, but even more so because some players actually do care and that means the incentive of salary is not applied equally to all players.

Why do we need a salary for players? Let's move to an auction draft and an auction style waiver system for free agents. Each team has a budget to build it's roster through the draft and through free agent waivers once a week. These systems will negate the need for any kind of salary negotiation. This is the system most competitive/money fantasy leagues use, and THOSE are what we should be trying to emulate because they are a game and so are we.

PS: For anyone who isn't familiar with auction style waivers, here's how they work. Any player who'd like to join the league as a free agent registers on the free agent thread. On a pre-determined day, let's say Sunday, registration closes. Owners then have a given time, usually 2 days, to submit bids. Owner 1 bids 15 on player A, owner 2 bids 18 on player A, owner 3 bids 5 on player A. Owner 2 would get that player and would pay either 18 or 16 depending on how we set it up (16 is the better system in my opinion). Any player who registered for the waiver auction and wasn't bid on is a true free agent through the rest of the week, meaning they can be picked up as last minute game day subs for $1. Any remaining leftovers go back to the waiver auction pool for the next week, and so on. Very simple, very easy, very effective.
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Re: Ways to make Salary mean something

Post by TeeKay » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:17 pm

The reason to have a minimum price for players is to prevent the top few players from getting an inflated salary from a bidding war. You could see Kurt or water going for like 600 of the 1000 salary if you didn't have any restrictions at all. The problem comes if that player has a real life event come up or they miss a Buncha weeks. Then the team is completely screwed and balance goes out the window and they have no resources at all to balance. The no minimum/maximum works in fantasy because no one suffers from that decision except the fantasy owner. Here, if this happens 8-9 other people suffer for it as well as the league balance suffers
Last edited by TeeKay on Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ways to make Salary mean something

Post by OptimusReim » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:34 pm

TeeKay wrote:Next season if it's 100% free I'm going to have myself, water Peter rep angle and critt not sign up for draft. Then boom week 1 we all sign with team Reimer City Reimers for 40 each and join Reimer vapour and stealth. That can legitimately happen with no recourse in the current system.
Reimers City Reimers sounds like a good team with a lot of depth.

i think the FA system hurts the integrity of the league, there's gotta be some stipulations aside from public shaming
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