EU Players

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wawmoose
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EU Players

Post by wawmoose » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:17 pm

For Season 4 I am suggesting that we do NOT allow EU players to register.

I have nothing against EU players, in fact I've been playing on EU a reasonable amount recently and most people are very nice, I'd argue they're nicer than NA in general. BUT they do have their own league going on, and it causes even more lag issues.

Last season I remember very few EU players playing in ZHL, and while they only participated in probe league (the 2 I remember playing the most were Rig and Sentries), those games always lagged much worse than normal, and often times it was unplayable until they left the game.

I'd also like to add that EU ZHL have excluded all NA players. So, us excluding them from NA ZHL should be no issue.

This may be a very minor issue, but if we're looking for ways to improve the quality of ZHL, this is a very easy way to start.
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Re: EU Players

Post by BacKFisCh » Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:12 pm

-1

Also I'm still thinking that NA players should be allowed to play in ezhl.
Last edited by BacKFisCh on Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EU Players

Post by Watermelon » Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:15 pm

Not a bad idea. +1
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Re: EU Players

Post by McDoudles » Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:38 pm

I actually think that it is okay to exclude the EU players.. most of the east-games are playable for me, but it's not possible to play as good as on EU and I think that stream + league mode doesn't make it any better.
The main reason I voted against NAs in EU league is that there are players that can do very good without lag, but are useless if it lags. Also it's unsure if they're available at the times we play (weekdays), which makes it very risky to draft them early and makes the whole draft a bigger gamble that it already is.
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Re: EU Players

Post by wawmoose » Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:09 pm

McDoudles wrote:I actually think that it is okay to exclude the EU players.. most of the east-games are playable for me, but it's not possible to play as good as on EU and I think that stream + league mode doesn't make it any better.
The main reason I voted against NAs in EU league is that there are players that can do very good without lag, but are useless if it lags. Also it's unsure if they're available at the times we play (weekdays), which makes it very risky to draft them early and makes the whole draft a bigger gamble that it already is.
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Re: EU Players

Post by Rigensis » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:12 pm

Hey NA Folks!

There`s cons and pros for players from other server joining for event. Highest on the list of course is lag situation between servers, especially between na`s east and central. Other thing is time zones - but then again each player can manage hisher time so its not Commish responsibility to manage them. In perfect lag free world there wouldnt be division between eu and na, but unfortunately - lag is keeping both communities apart TT

The main reason why The D~League (EZHL s2) is exclusively EU only is - first the majority voted that - but even more importantly - its our first draft league - which means there will be problems - and a lot of problems has surfaced already. And being EU players only league we keep things simple, manageable - as simple as possible so we could successfully deal with problems which comes from the fact we never had this experience of draft league in EU. Lets us get over with our first RIP season.

In future we will definitely look in possibilities to include NA players. I was naive thinking that about this time Blizzard support would help us dealing with lag problems. But Im optimist.

So with that - I personally wanted to add - the reason for not to include or to include EU players in ZHL should be based on that whether EU players will cause more additional problems to ZHL or more additional fun to ZHL.

And suggestions - there are ways to allow EU folks play ZHL in a way it doesnt influence fight for the throphy. For example - allow EUes to be fielded in probees only - since you guys have probe league attendance problems anyway. And if theres any EU player who wants to be fielded in ZHL game then it should be agreed with Commish. Also additional tests should be run to check if player who is going to be drafted has lag in east of central and can he play in inhouse.

The lag in NA ZHL is NOT caused by EU players - the problems exist without EU players. So not adding EUs you miss some additional fun TBH. IMHO.

(ZHL was fun but I wont sign up again. But I still love You guys. But perhaps there are others who dream about 1M$ contracts in NA.)
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Re: EU Players

Post by Blitz » Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:44 am

Hey I just wanted to throw the last EU open tournament result back into the mix. Personally I played that tournament on an internet that was google fiber and was getting the upward of 200 MB/s DL speeds. This is better than 99% of all our current NA ZH players will probably ever play on.. and I still had a few lag issues while playing on that EU tournament.. Mainly because I was on an all NA team that was having their own lag issues which lagged all other NA players (thank to peer-peer servers). However even when I personally wasn't having lag issues it only took one other NA player to lag to slow things down and have the other EU team to get impatient, bm, and telling NA to "NA should only fucking play on their own server". Perhaps if SC2 is ever optimized (I doubt it) then EU and NA can coexist together and play happily. But in the current situation I highly disagree that any EU should be allowed in our league.. Especially since they vetoed us in their league. Golden Rule : Treat others as you wish to be treated. Due to this and obvious futuristic lag problems, EU shouldn't really ever be allowed in ZHL until SC2 lag is optimized and/or NA is allowed to compete in the EZHL.
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Re: EU Players

Post by ilvsntrs » Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:51 am

Fair enough. I was hoping to have some probe fun again though.
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Re: EU Players

Post by PinkVoid » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:44 am

I gave up on IHes months ago, because I screw up 3 out of 4 games for my team, cause other player to lag and don't enjoy playing with 1sec delay anyway. Considering all this: ofc I won't participate in NA league. How is this even a debate?

As much as I hate to say it: cross-server play, even if it is only 1 guy per game - more are definitly worse - can cause a lot of lag and delay. We had that with IHL, tournament, showmatches and dozens of priv games. Even those people who were sure they never cause lag ended up in an unplayable situation at some point.

I mean, didn't we even learn one thing from the KingMe matches?

Blizz plz fix. :?
Maybe a server in the middle of the atlantic ocean could help 8-)
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Re: EU Players

Post by Rigensis » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:17 am

There was another NA player in EU open - eldersage on ducks - it seemed that there wasn`t problems with lags. Its definitely worth to look into it.
The whole experience of lags is different from player to player - for example - it seems that McDoudles can play on east lag free all the time - so why wouldnt he be allowed to play?
Sure I had personally bad time on probees due to lag - but no lag on east inhouses - this experience made me a solid believer in xapos principle - why leagues east Inhouses are laggy if non-league Inhouses are lag-free? And no - I think i played in 3 games - personally i think the reason there was lag was because me and some one from my team had problems to connect - I remember that after caster left, bench left and only 7 people were left in the last probee game I played we had no lag. Theres definitely some mechanics under it which causes lag happen but its not as simple as "he is from eu, he lags" or even not as simple as xapos effect. Until theres some research done we will never know. (But the whole experience with being a part of Mar Sara S3 was awesome - it made it much more interesting to watch NA games on stream and priceless to see inner workings of NA team. Apart from lag it was great trip to NA.)
Back to the topic -
As commissioner I could have worked with NA folks who wanted to play on EU by testing out their lag situation, adding new rules like (If alien server player plays 2 lag free probe games heshe can play in main league), or many other stuff to create trust in EU people to vote yes for adding NA players in our first draft league. But exactly the fact its our first draft league - copy/pasta of na rules for 3 season - we have no idea how this league will turn out - with NA ppl in it it would be even more unpredictable. If anyone is hurt about that decision - please sorry, understand - its our first step in draft league and I wanted to play safe. That decision wasn`t meant as disrespect to NA players. And I guess - I never said thank you for creating rules for ZHL which we are using without permission :) Thank You!
But NA has their 4th season starting - so they have huge experience with draft league - so I think it would be right time for them to try figure out the best rule set for creating safety net for catching EU players who cant play on NA and allowing to participate in their events those who can play lag-free.
It will definitely draw more interest for NA events from EU.

Using arguments like "they didnt include us" or "that player lags thus everyone is lagging" is not the best way to deal with this challenge. And I heard Americans are great finding solutions to tough challenges :)

Plus - I agree with Pink - Blizz plz fix.
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