EU Players

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Blitz
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Re: EU Players

Post by Blitz » Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:58 pm

Rigensis wrote:There was another NA player in EU open - eldersage on ducks - it seemed that there wasn`t problems with lags. Its definitely worth to look into it.
The whole experience of lags is different from player to player - for example - it seems that McDoudles can play on east lag free all the time - so why wouldnt he be allowed to play?
Sure I had personally bad time on probees due to lag - but no lag on east inhouses - this experience made me a solid believer in xapos principle - why leagues east Inhouses are laggy if non-league Inhouses are lag-free? And no - I think i played in 3 games - personally i think the reason there was lag was because me and some one from my team had problems to connect - I remember that after caster left, bench left and only 7 people were left in the last probee game I played we had no lag. Theres definitely some mechanics under it which causes lag happen but its not as simple as "he is from eu, he lags" or even not as simple as xapos effect. Until theres some research done we will never know. (But the whole experience with being a part of Mar Sara S3 was awesome - it made it much more interesting to watch NA games on stream and priceless to see inner workings of NA team. Apart from lag it was great trip to NA.)
Back to the topic -
As commissioner I could have worked with NA folks who wanted to play on EU by testing out their lag situation, adding new rules like (If alien server player plays 2 lag free probe games heshe can play in main league), or many other stuff to create trust in EU people to vote yes for adding NA players in our first draft league. But exactly the fact its our first draft league - copy/pasta of na rules for 3 season - we have no idea how this league will turn out - with NA ppl in it it would be even more unpredictable. If anyone is hurt about that decision - please sorry, understand - its our first step in draft league and I wanted to play safe. That decision wasn`t meant as disrespect to NA players. And I guess - I never said thank you for creating rules for ZHL which we are using without permission :) Thank You!
But NA has their 4th season starting - so they have huge experience with draft league - so I think it would be right time for them to try figure out the best rule set for creating safety net for catching EU players who cant play on NA and allowing to participate in their events those who can play lag-free.
It will definitely draw more interest for NA events from EU.

Using arguments like "they didnt include us" or "that player lags thus everyone is lagging" is not the best way to deal with this challenge. And I heard Americans are great finding solutions to tough challenges :)

Plus - I agree with Pink - Blizz plz fix.
I'm not hurt... It's just fair. If EU has no intent on trying to allow NA to play in their lag, then why should NA waste their time/effort to allow EU to play NA? lol?

- On the topic of lag.. I can play EU with 0 lag, but only if I'm not with other NA who will lag me, and I could prove this 20 games in a row. I can only get this kind of playable delay on EU when I play on a very good connection though (my house internet is near good enough). However I could promise to never play EU league unless I was on my 200MB/s DL internet. However that is far down the road.

So in conclusion I again.. state that EU shouldn't ever be allowed into ZHL until atleast some solid rules are set into stone about cross-server play that is mutual between the 2 servers, and that EU and NA both allow each other into their respected leagues with these rules set in place and mandated to be followed. Their shouldn't be any cross-server play in such a high level game like ZHL or EZHL. It just is bad/not logical.

-However to say that NA will automatically will lag or EU will automatically will lag is kind of un-true. One reason why NA can help EU with their cross-server play is because NA has realized the difference between east/west servers, whereas EU seems to have turned a blind eye to the servers on EU (I think?). So I think cross-server play is in the future, but quite far away.
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Re: EU Players

Post by PinkVoid » Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:53 pm

Blitz wrote: whereas EU seems to have turned a blind eye to the servers on EU (I think?).
THANK GOD. Last thing we want is people bitching around about servers ;)

However, I am not too sure if there is more than one server active at all. Maybe it changed by now - I checked a few months ago and all games were on the same server (france). I was told a year ago there was german and russian server too. Dunno about today.

Think about it: most of the top french player (slide, mos, tyrion, ilv...) have crazy reaction times (maybe because of little delay) but russian and east european player (other side of europe) are 1) strangely rare and 2) underperform in comparison to the general sc2 and gaming numbers from player of each country. (in sc2 which, uses the same servers ofc, east europe+russia is pretty strong; might be because real sc2 isn't as sensitive to delay)
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Re: EU Players

Post by wawmoose » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:17 pm

We can't deny that some EU players can play East/Central server games without lag, in regular circumstances. But add league mode and casters, and I have yet to see an EU player play cross-server and not cause horrible lag for everyone.

While EU may suffer from inexperience with the league, NA-ZHL games suffer horribly from lag issues. We have so many damn remakes and pauses, it's terrible for viewers who just want to watch a game being played, and bad for the players because it's a frustrating distraction. We NEED to do our best to cut out whatever things we KNOW cause additional lag issues, like the removal of benches, as Water suggested in another thread, and not allowing EU players to participate.

Even if 1 or 2 EU players can prove they can play cross-server and cause no lag, they still have EU-ZHL to play in, and it is still not a good enough reason to allow ALL EU players to sign up, because we know most if not all will cause more lag problems.
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Re: EU Players

Post by Rigensis » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:18 am

Wawmoose wrote:We NEED to do our best to cut out whatever things we KNOW cause additional lag issues
Fair enough - its true that NA has more lag problems and need to deal with it. If that means no EU in ZHL - ok.
But I would point out that you guys have problems with people showing up for Z-L (ZotZ`s League). There wont be a lot of EU ppl interested in playing in NAs league any due to fact that your games is played in deep night for eus, but those few weirdos who can stay awake till 2-3am might be a little help with attendance issues to probees. With additional safety rules or anti-lag rules specifically focused on any EU player - it might work. And since NA has more experience dealing with lag - it should be NA which comes up with good rule set for it IMHO.
But no - your argument is sound and is not aggressive. So I personally can respect it and accept. (PS I agree that you guys need to get rid of bench - good experiment - but it didnt bring edible fruits.)
Blitz wrote:I'm not hurt... It's just fair. If EU has no intent on trying to allow NA to play in their lag, then why should NA waste their time/effort to allow EU to play NA? lol?
Then why do you sound so hurt?

You know, you are walking dangerous line here - Your logic is that we should adopt tit-for-tat politics.
First problem with that is the fact that both communities are trying to achieve same goal - to have as much fun from zealot hockey - may it be more events or larger player base or more streams. We are in same both. We are not enemies.

And you are confusing two different things - natural barriers between two servers and personality driven barriers. Wawmoose`s argument about the fact that NA league cant risk of having possible additional lag from the fact theres more ppl in league - is good example of protecting league`s interest from natural barriers. Your argument about bad EUs who didnt let you guys play in their league is personality driven barrier.
The fact is - we need to try do reduce both of those two aspects of relationship between our two servers. The first one is not in our hands but in hands of Blizzard Lords, which as we know it is not the best ones to trust in fast help. But the other one - the personality driven one - is entirely in our hands.
As I explained - there was internal reasoning for not including NA people in EU`s first draft league. You choose to ignore that argument. Not cool, bro.

And finally - we can look at which of servers were more welcoming to other - lets talk about fairness -
Wildfire organized InHouse League for EUs. Which was great success.
EU hosted and streamed KingMe Bo3 Show matches series. I still remember my teams games against them. Big fun.
We had Kurt (great guy!) casting and if I remember right also streaming on NA`s stream games of COTEP tournament.
EU welcomed NA to play in EU Open tournament. We will work on some adjustments in rules focusing NA players so future tournaments can be lag-proof.
Junky includes and welcomes NA player plays in his videos. He even agreed to do ZotZ special video if ZotZ sends him enough DA PLAYS.
Additional traffic to this web-page which helps WildFire to keep this site alive.
EU Commish starts direct discussion with BlizzDevs about NAs lag problems.
What EU is getting in return? Few smirk remarks on NA stream, huge waiting time for skins, broken skins? Is THAT fair?

Ok ok to be fair - there is reason for all of that - devs are slow, it seems devs also dont care about EUs community much, NA doesnt have Club culture in high level to have such events as we do gave in EU, only few hotheads in NA have negative attitude towards eus, but then again theres some EU`s hotheads too, and finally Time Zone wise there always will be more NA people willing to play in EU than EUs in NA.

Plus - so far EU ♥ Anglefire! It seems there might be some positive cooperation between our two servers.

I have 250MB/s up and down - so good internet is not safety guard against Blizzards Lag unfortunately.
Blitz wrote: .. NA has realized the difference between east/west servers, whereas EU seems to have turned a blind eye to the servers on EU (I think?).
Well, we don`t have reason to notice the difference because in all fairness EU is lag-free - sure there are few ppl who has lag but theres local reason for their lag (bad pc, living in small city, etc).
Pasive aggressive thing to say would be - NA should find out of server situation on EU since they are main group which has problems with lag.
But - I will do the research.

But, please, lets NOT go tit-for-tat way, since we are one community which unfortunately is divided into twos thanks to blizzards inability to fix problems with lag in zh (you can go try to spam that blizzard thread - to remind them that we* still have the problem). But we still can help grow each community - firstly by not being aggressive, by realizing that your problems are ours and vice versa (for example - lazy devs are problem for both servers not only for EUs), realizing that it is in both of ours interests to find solutions to all problems we have.

So, Blitz, once more - sorry for not including na`s in eu first draft league. Please do understand that it wasnt targeted attack on na, but internal decision to take it slow in hope that our first attempt of walking d-walk wont end in painful fall on the ground. M`key?

*WE - NAs lag problem is also EUs lag problem - since thats the reason why two communities are so far from each other.
Last edited by Rigensis on Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: EU Players

Post by DerrocK » Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:28 am

I think there is an easy solution for this problem regarding NAs that come to play to EU for tournaments/leagues. Just don't allow kingme. KingMe joining means +4 NA players will be playing at the same time. We all know players such as Vapour or Eldersage dont have big lag issues. What Eldersage did is the way to go in my opinion. He joined n EU clan (SQUIK) and was able to play the EU Open. I dont know if he experienced lags himself but Im pretty sure no EU players noticed delay. Then again, Im not sure if many teams would be interested in siging up these kind of players but for example Vapour, he is skilled and I dont see any reason as of why any teams wouldnt sign him up, reserve player or not. I would also like to mention that in this EU draft league we are having a TON of players not showing up for the matches up to the point some teams are practically dissapearing. I believe this is in part because they dont take this league seriously as it is not included in the clan culture.
So after this lack of attendance it is obvious that more players are required, NA or not, we need them because it's kinda sad that teams with 10 players cant get a main 4 player team running.
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Re: EU Players

Post by Rigensis » Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:42 am

Sure - Junky theres lot of ways to deal with possible laggers.
For example my suggestion for some rules would be -
Each team of next tournament is allowed to have 1-2 NA players in rooster
In the game if theres a lag then NA player from "Away" team is forced to quit the match. If lag continues then 2nd of Away team`s NAner is forced to quit match. If Away team doesnt have any NAners in game but lags continue then Home team`s NAner quits the match. Any time lost with testing things for lag is restored by using -t thingy.
This way we will now what is connection regarding causing lag between those NAners and then maybe we can add extra rule - IF we have solid evidence that NAner in question causes lag period - then he is not allowed to play in event.

PS i forgot to mention Junky`s videos - he includes NA players and their awesome plays. Do NA videos include EU plays? nope. </3 TT.
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Re: EU Players

Post by Rigensis » Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:54 am

Yesterday I was talking with one player who hasnt signed up for D~League - and he told me - that he will join to league when we will have C~League again. There is some problems with D~League in EU. True.
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Re: EU Players

Post by PinkVoid » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:01 am

wawmoose wrote: We NEED to do our best to cut out whatever things we KNOW cause additional lag issues, like the removal of benches, as Water suggested in another thread, and not allowing EU players to participate.
Personally I feel that is 100% understandable and exactly the same reason why we did it.
Right before we started our clan league we had that COTEP tournament. I will never forget the sudden death goal we got in game 3, BO3, finals. Basically it was snipe - ff save - freeze - rebound - goal ---- gz, ur second. That was what we prior trained for like crazy for many weeks? Very, very unsatisfying.

I was so damn speechless, as organizer I didn't even thank Kurt and Maha on stream for casting the event. I was basically starring at my display being disappointed. I was already in the shootout in my mind.

Lag SUCKS! Lag sucks A LOT in ZH. It is so frustrating to not being able to play to ones full potential. We all get that, we all know that.
Rigensis wrote:
Blitz wrote:I'm not hurt... It's just fair. If EU has no intent on trying to allow NA to play in their lag, then why should NA waste their time/effort to allow EU to play NA? lol?
Then why do you sound so hurt?
I feel that too. Leave emotions outside here, it is 100% legit to exclude EU from NA tournaments and/or league. If there are west servers included it should be no question anyway. Also keep in mind the time zone: You can play Sunday during day on EU and we have to stay up until the middle of the night for NA events, therefore I am quite sure if it was the other way around, a lot more of us would have tried to join your events and you had to step in and prevent it.
Rigensis wrote: So, Blitz, once more - sorry for not including na`s in eu first draft league. Please do understand that it wasnt targeted attack on na, but internal decision to take it slow in hope that our first attempt of walking d-walk wont end in painful fall on the ground. M`key?
It is a matter of definition but IHL was a draft league as well and NAs were not excluded back then. And I remember the lags, it was freaking AWFUL!



Also on a side note, can everybody get over that nationalism (or is it bnet-serverism, whatever), thanks! When we have an EU only event, next time we should formally exclude korean and everything outside of europe+russia+mideast. Remember, it is not about our american friends, it is about the lag issues...

I don't want to sound douchy here but I still have the feeling some folks think that we are afraid to be dominated or something by you guys and that is the reason we try to exclude you... this is definitly not the case.
If it was like that, I wouldn't have let my B team play against kingme in the recent tournament, would I? For example number 1 picked player in draft and keeper legend therobstr was watching the game on stream even though he was available to play (watch it on twitch, rob himself commented on why he did not play on stream). It is not because we don't respect the player of kingme, at least I do for sure. It is because I played too many games with streamer and NAs to not be sure about how handicapped they really were. And we even agreed to leave out our bench for that game......

DerrocK wrote:. I believe this is in part because they dont take this league seriously as it is not included in the clan culture.
Yes, we had to try it out, but looking back it seems obvious to me: Why should we get freaking random teams going when we have a healthy clan culture with lots of hungry teams and experience together? By now, there are a handful of teams who really perform well.
I don't know about you guys but the way I can play with my mates is just different. I can pass MemenTo and espiacally Slide blindly, it seems like we always see the same gaps and both work for that pass. That only develops from playing 100s of games together and does not work with any other top player for me.


Rigensis wrote:Yesterday I was talking with one player who hasnt signed up for D~League - and he told me - that he will join to league when we will have C~League again. There is some problems with D~League in EU. True.
I can understand that tbh, I left my team too.

Let's see how it goes but I am against a S2 of a Draft league and all for more premade team events again. We only need to get some lower league going as well, because I feel the problem with clan events is that when you are not good enough for a top clan it is quite annoying to get into a team and get playing time. But hey, I don't play GSL either, do I?
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Re: EU Players

Post by ilvsntrs » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:31 am

Its better to forbid EU players to play in the ZHL/Probe.
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Re: EU Players

Post by BacKFisCh » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:53 am

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I mean seriously guys, it's no big deal.

I think everyone here agrees that ZH has to be played under the best conditions when you are talking about lag.
And everyone here agrees that the lag will / might improve when crossserver players are in there.

I think we can stop this discusion at this point.
EU excluded NAs, so it's nothing but justified for NA to do the same.

And please don't discuss here which format EUs league should be.. that's a different topic.

Litlle sitenote here:
ZH is not about leagues or winning them. It's about fun. No matter which country, which server you are, everyone just wants to have fun playing this game.
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