Perhaps it might be time for a debate

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LittleDicky
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Re: Perhaps it might be time for a debate

Post by LittleDicky » Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:53 am

DerrocK wrote:The single best solution is a gentlemens agreement like we have on EU where no1/very few people do this and its regarded as dirty by most of the community
Words of wisdom, in EU even pubbers when try to bitchwalk at first, quickly realize it's retarded and stop it.
Watermelon wrote:There is nothing wrong with players who choose to bitchwalk
ZH isn't a professional sport with money on stake, we are all here playing because we love the game and no one pays us for it. The price of winning is mostly the reputation and swag and If you win by bitchwalking you lose it. There is something wrong with bitchwalkers, I am sure everyone knew since game1 that hiding behind goal is a "viable strategy" and for some reason 99% won't do it.
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Re: Perhaps it might be time for a debate

Post by krazymen » Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:46 am

I would like a moderator to lock this thread as it has achieved his purpose which was to figure out whether the community wants to remove bitchwalking as an option.

I will make a secondary thread where we can find an idea and have a more structured thread.
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Re: Perhaps it might be time for a debate

Post by Marker » Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:24 am

krazymen wrote:I would like a moderator to lock this thread as it has achieved his purpose which was to figure out whether the community wants to remove bitchwalking as an option.

I will make a secondary thread where we can find an idea and have a more structured thread.
Ya know, this thread has come the conclusion that's very orwellian. I mean we are forcing the concept that there is something fundamentally wrong on how a person chooses to play a game, and the community is imposing i's will that this is "wrong" and needs to be "corrected" through means outside of the strategy just dying out. I'm okay with people bitching about this, but this is gone a little far if action is indeed implemented. What's next? Half court snipes are cheap so goals past mid court don't count (I mean it has happened as much as bitch walking this season). Just because we don't like how someone plays the game, why do we feel entitled that they are wrong? This whole thing just seems foreign to me that people are stubborn and won't get past the mentality "oh he beat me now i need to change the rules of the game." This is supremely childish and makes the game as less fun as bitch walking does in the first place.
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Re: Perhaps it might be time for a debate

Post by krazymen » Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:35 am

Marker that argument has been said times and times again. I will answer one last time, the issue is not that someone lost to the strategy. The issue is that the strategy can not be countered. There is no "next" thing that will be changed gameplay wise (now i cant read the future so idk what the devs will and will not do but i dont see any other issue in the gameplay right now). Your comparison with half court snipes is totally different. Half court snipes are not even comparable to bitchwalk. A decent goalie can stop any half court snipes on his own. Half court snipes can work but are also counter able which is why there is no problem with them.

We are not forcing anything on anyone, we are balancing the game. Ill take another game as example, if an hero in heroes of the storm could kill a whole team alone without having any down side, players would complain about it, it would not stop anyone from using that hero at the time. Hell, he might be the most used hero because he would have insane winning rate but would that be healthy for the game? Certainly not, blizzard would then patch the game to balance it and make that specific hero weaker. That is exactly what we are doing with bitchwalking.

This is not war, you are not forced to do things you dont want to do. Your liberty is not removed from you. This is a video game. The goal is that the game is balanced and there is no overpowered tools that a team can use against the other. The issue was voted on and a conclusion was made.
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Re: Perhaps it might be time for a debate

Post by Marker » Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:47 am

krazymen wrote:Marker that argument has been said times and times again. I will answer one last time, the issue is not that someone lost to the strategy. The issue is that the strategy can not be countered. There is no "next" thing that will be changed gameplay wise (now i cant read the future so idk what the devs will and will not do but i dont see any other issue in the gameplay right now). Your comparison with half court snipes is totally different. Half court snipes are not even comparable to bitchwalk. A decent goalie can stop any half court snipes on his own. Half court snipes can work but are also counter able which is why there is no problem with them.
It can be countered with 2 people pressuring and 1 defender covering the pass on a 2v1 breakaway. Though this is hard, but it is your fault you are losing, is this game suppose to be easy? boo hoo
krazymen wrote: We are not forcing anything on anyone, we are balancing the game. Ill take another game as example, if an hero in heroes of the storm could kill a whole team alone without having any down side, players would complain about it, it would not stop anyone from using that hero at the time. Hell, he might be the most used hero because he would have insane winning rate but would that be healthy for the game? Certainly not, blizzard would then patch the game to balance it and make that specific hero weaker. That is exactly what we are doing with bitchwalking.
I mean, can both teams not do this? In a heroes game in professional play you can only have a hero one team per side. And if you're playing a quick match, isn't it balanced? I mean if both sides have him doesn't it just cancel out? What does this even mean?
krazymen wrote: This is not war, you are not forced to do things you dont want to do. Your liberty is not removed from you. This is a video game. The goal is that the game is balanced and there is no overpowered tools that a team can use against the other. The issue was voted on and a conclusion was made.
Yeah, but you are fucking a perfectly good game based on principal, and both teams have the opportunity.Equality means equal opportunity. If I wanted equity in my zealot hockey, we should just play shootout after shootout.
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Re: Perhaps it might be time for a debate

Post by krazymen » Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:03 am

Sending 2 people to pressure 1 is not a counter. Thats a bandaid. 90% of the top tier players will tell you it is not counter able. Its not about if its easy to do or not. It is just straight up not counter able.

The idea with the heroes comparison is exactly the same idea that you just talked about in your last point. If both teams can get it then its balanced right? Technically both teams would have equal chances to have that op hero yet does that make it balanced? no it does not. Saying both teams have the opportunity to bitchwalk is not balance.

This is my last post here.

Mods lock this thread now please. Thank you.
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Re: Perhaps it might be time for a debate

Post by Marker » Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:09 am

krazymen wrote: The idea with the heroes comparison is exactly the same idea that you just talked about in your last point. If both teams can get it then its balanced right? Technically both teams would have equal chances to have that op hero yet does that make it balanced? no it does not. Saying both teams have the opportunity to bitchwalk is not balance.
One is a someone gets first pick based on RNG, the other is a decent amount of skill to score a goal, two vastly different things. And if you can't recognize that then whats the point of you pushing for new things in this game? You clearly can't tell the difference anyways.
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Re: Perhaps it might be time for a debate

Post by JMoney » Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:49 am

JUST 5 ZERATUL VS 5 ZERATUL U STUPID NIOOB
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Re: Perhaps it might be time for a debate

Post by Watermelon » Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:27 pm

Marker wrote: It can be countered with 2 people pressuring and 1 defender covering the pass on a 2v1 breakaway. Though this is hard, but it is your fault you are losing, is this game suppose to be easy? boo hoo
In other words, it can be countered by hoping that the opponent is stupid enough to try to score with their 2v1, instead of continuing to bitchwalk behind the opposite net until 2 of your skaters have to commit there as well, followed by a bounce back to the original bitchwalker who can rotate around his own net again? How are you going to counter that?

I go back to my original analogy: If photon cannons had twice the HP and built twice as fast, all GSL players would switch to Protoss and start cannon rushing because they want to win. And there's nothing wrong with the players who decide to do that, as they are just employing the most effective tactic to win. Sure it's "fair" because everyone can cannon rush, but is that what's best for the scene? Do players want Starcraft II to turn into some cannon rush contest, and lose most everything that made the game entertaining?
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Re: Perhaps it might be time for a debate

Post by HALOUNSC » Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:13 pm

Once again, If every decision here is going to be argued/disagreed upon and nothing is being done then everyone stop whining and deal with it. If it kills the thrill, the cast, or hype of a game then so be it. Less viewers, slowly dissolving the community, etc. Can't wait :). Blitz if you feel then that these "ideas" are inconsiderate or narrow-minded then you fix this. You created it so you fix it. Otherwise "...."
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