Perhaps it might be time for a debate

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Rigensis
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Re: Perhaps it might be time for a debate

Post by Rigensis » Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:33 am

It seems that I love debating. This is a complex predicament.

The heart of it is the question is b-walk a crime, dirty play, something we want out of the game. And that is a fundamental question - if the answer is YES then we need to change whole game, and if it is NO then we need to find a counter to b-walk or end this discussion. I can understand that opposing team which needs to deal with b-walk feels quite powerless, but that is not the reason to break the nature of the game and turn it into a circus.

If answer is NO then there is no reason to punish team which choose to b-walk. You rather want to give the other team some tools to counter that.

The different ways how you can boost chances to get puck's possession from the b-walker team has been purposed.
I can add more -
Make field smaller - that would decrease space where a b-walker can hide (but technically adding zones, icing, proper way to enter zone - would achieve the same effect of making field smaller for b-walkers).
Tweak the speed of puck and speed of skaters - mainly decreasing speed of field players and increasing puck speed - in such manner that all 3 players could go and and pressure b-walk team with keeping mind of possible shot on goal (direct or wall shot), since it would be unlikely that b-walking team would be first to loose puck before the opposite goalie. Effectively it would make field bigger (since players would skate slower) - but that would put emphasis on good passes and positional play.
Would be cool to have different possibilities tested, but I can imagine that it would take too much time to make tests just to test things out.

The other answer is YES - one way how game can be changed is to add timer in which team needs to make a shot on goal.
Football, ice-hockey, American Football doesn't have any timers in which teams need to make an attack. Basketball has a timer for an attack, but team can elect to b-walk in their time as they often do in the end of the game if they are winning. Handball is probably only game where there is a rule against passive play - and handball basically is a game of b-defense.
(Majority of sports don't have a rule against their equivalent of our b-walking. The reasons, I believe, are 1) the fundamental principle of sport "the strongest wins" is respected 2) there are counters to their versions of b-walk. Tho all sports, it seems, have a rules against delaying game by other means - like football goalie trying to find perfect spot for ball for too long, or football player sleeping of field in agony after light touch, in hockey player not coming to face of area quickly enough, tennis players has set time spot when they need to make a serve, etc).
The rules - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69Ap8WsenXc
Watch some games of handball and decide if you want that kind of game. Some rules can change the whole dynamic of the game. And at that point - maybe it's better just to make a new game?

Tigers@Warpigs https://youtu.be/SpR9Ok6Y6so?t=12m35s was good game - yes there was b-walking - but it is a competition not a show - teams should do what they can to win, casters need to cast the game in an interesting manner so viewers would be engaged. If you want competition done in entertaining manner - WWE might be your cup of tea.
Otherwise - competition should be done in competitive manner, don't punish those who have skill to win the game.

Talking about refs - currently there are only few in-game rules which demands presence of a ref - pause rule, teams calling for remake and setting time, score. We don't have fights between players, interaction with a crowd, timing is done automatically, top notch sport equipment (pucks, nets, ice quality, etc) is provided by Blizzard+our Devs and doesn't need refs attention, zealots don't have health problems, etc. Real life refs need to do so many things in real life - they are real mvps. In Zealot Hockey - only few in-game rules. So there are no need for more refs in this "fucking" sport.

(I think that themusic or crush said they could add pause timer but the consensus was there that there are to many different scenarios to happen there that it would be better leave it to a real human to deal with)

In essence I would agree that the best would be add some rule in zhl rule book (since this seems to be only zhl problem) and then enforce it by league referees vote after the game - like suspension for 3 games for that who actively uses b-walk, I don't know.

But since Moose loves democracy - I would suggest let team owners vote if they want to add some rule against b-walking (a quick solution in this case) and if yes then let them vote on the nature of the solution.

I dedicate this wall of text to friend MoS, who is taking a long break due to different life plans in near future.
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Re: Perhaps it might be time for a debate

Post by Marker » Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:19 pm

It's been 10 pages... Perhaps its time for a conclusion....
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Re: Perhaps it might be time for a debate

Post by TeeKay » Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:31 pm

I absolutely despise the referee idea. Casters have enough to do without "counting off seconds" in the defensive zone. Gameplay change or nothing (and please not nothing).

Another suggestion that might be fun to try out is if a team has possession of it in their half for 10 seconds, the other team (skaters+goalie) get a 25% increase to speed for 10 uninterrupted seconds. This would make defending the bitchwalking skater much safer because they can pressure easier, get cut off more angles, or even get back faster. This could be basically real life from the other team catching their breathe so they have more energy to go full force to pressing.
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Re: Perhaps it might be time for a debate

Post by Tenkz » Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:40 pm

It's hard to implement changes like what TK said/what I'm about to say when taking into account how some people play. Guerrila/Blitzerg both hold the puck for almost 10 seconds each time they get the puck in their half. Is this bitchwalking? Not necessarily, but the game could detect it as bitchwalking and force an unwarranted penalty.

What about once the team has the puck in their half for 12 uninterrupted seconds (no change of possession), the puckholder loses the ability to steal for 10-20 seconds. This makes bitchwalking dangerous as their defense will be considerably weaker if this occurs. It forces the puck holder to pass it, which gives the other team an opportunity to touch the puck. They also can't resteal after this occurs, giving them no chance of extending the bitchwalk, until the penalty expires.
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Re: Perhaps it might be time for a debate

Post by LittleDicky » Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:04 pm

Tenkz wrote:It's hard to implement changes like what TK said/what I'm about to say when taking into account how some people play. Guerrila/Blitzerg both hold the puck for almost 10 seconds each time they get the puck in their half. Is this bitchwalking? Not necessarily, but the game could detect it as bitchwalking and force an unwarranted penalty.
Why so many people here assume the WHOLE HALF to count the bitchwalking timer?

It's only about the area behind own goal, where you can't challange the player alone, as he will use the natural obstacle of his goal to play cat and mouse with you. Everwhere else you can put a fair challange to the player holding a puck without having to go 2v1.

Count only area behind the goal. There is no point in having your puck there for 10 seconds without being interrupted...

The solution is imo so easy this whole debate is useless and 95% posts here just make it look complicated.

for reference...
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Re: Perhaps it might be time for a debate

Post by Watermelon » Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:57 pm

LittleDicky wrote: Why so many people here assume the WHOLE HALF to count the bitchwalking timer?

It's only about the area behind own goal, where you can't challange the player alone, as he will use the natural obstacle of his goal to play cat and mouse with you. Everwhere else you can put a fair challange to the player holding a puck without having to go 2v1.

Count only area behind the goal. There is no point in having your puck there for 10 seconds without being interrupted...

The solution is imo so easy this whole debate is useless and 95% posts here just make it look complicated.

for reference...
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Goalie pokes his stick around the post (while still protected from the crease), you tap the puck to him, he outlets across the halfline, they send it back to him, and he gives it back to you. too ez
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Re: Perhaps it might be time for a debate

Post by htcp » Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:17 pm

@littledicky

if you even check out the last instance that people are posting (https://youtu.be/SpR9Ok6Y6so?t=12m35s)
you can see we are not even behind the net for greater than 5 seconds at a time. So your solution falls flat pretty quickly. This is a complicated issue because there are so many workarounds. It's hard to create in-game solutions easily without affecting other parts of the game.
Last edited by htcp on Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Perhaps it might be time for a debate

Post by Blitz » Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:53 am

Can one of the mods be useful and move this thread to the "game mechanics" section like it's supposed to be. That way when I press most recent on NA ZHL I'm not sucked back to this pointless thread.
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Re: Perhaps it might be time for a debate

Post by LittleDicky » Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:06 am

htcp wrote:@littledicky

if you even check out the last instance that people are posting (https://youtu.be/SpR9Ok6Y6so?t=12m35s)
you can see we are not even behind the net for greater than 5 seconds at a time. So your solution falls flat pretty quickly. This is a complicated issue because there are so many workarounds. It's hard to create in-game punishments easily without affecting other parts of the game.
The first time they got into the zone it took them 8 seconds to shoot puck. Another thing is if the timer was there in that video you would not waste there 2 zealots on guarding both goal sides of goal for a moment and would be better positioned to intercept his pass instead.

I agree it's complicated to prevent them from wasting a bit of time here and there, but the timer is making reaction easier for you and more complicated for them.
Blitz wrote:Can one of the mods be useful and move this thread to the "game mechanics" section like it's supposed to be. That way when I press most recent on NA ZHL I'm not sucked back to this pointless thread.
Use this instead: http://www.zealothockey.net/search.php? ... ive_topics
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Re: Perhaps it might be time for a debate

Post by DerrocK » Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:59 am

Watermelon wrote:
LittleDicky wrote: Why so many people here assume the WHOLE HALF to count the bitchwalking timer?

It's only about the area behind own goal, where you can't challange the player alone, as he will use the natural obstacle of his goal to play cat and mouse with you. Everwhere else you can put a fair challange to the player holding a puck without having to go 2v1.

Count only area behind the goal. There is no point in having your puck there for 10 seconds without being interrupted...

The solution is imo so easy this whole debate is useless and 95% posts here just make it look complicated.

for reference...
Image
Goalie pokes his stick around the post (while still protected from the crease), you tap the puck to him, he outlets across the halfline, they send it back to him, and he gives it back to you. too ez

In that case add a rule/gameplay change that the goalkeeper cant pass to the player that passed the goalkeeper. This is an actual thing in futsal

But anyways, everyone here knows that the real solution is a gentlemens agreement but that is not happening right? glhf
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