Season 9 Suggestions

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Sly
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Re: Season 9 Suggestions

Post by Sly » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:09 pm

Watermelon wrote: 2. slightly differing team schedules (one team might play Shakuras once, another team plays Shakuras twice - it's not perfect balance but most if not all professional sports leagues use this format for scheduling purposes)
In case it wasn't clear, this is precisely what I was suggesting the leadership at least consider. If there were 16 teams, for example, it wouldn't make sense for all of them to even play each other once. Teams do not necessarily need to all play one another.
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Re: Season 9 Suggestions

Post by carlito » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:29 pm

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Blitz
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Re: Season 9 Suggestions

Post by Blitz » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:27 am

wawmoose wrote: Aside from that, why so many changes suggested? This season has went very smoothly so far. Sure a couple rules could use some tweaking, but this was the least bad season overall, and by far the best managed season (TY Tom and LMs) I've been in on all accounts (S3-S8). Literally 0 major issues; just some hurt egos.
"Literally 0 major issues" literally the most incorrect statement. There are quite a number of issues and there were "literally 0 fixes". A few of those include trades and the health of probe league. This may have been the smoothest season because nothing was really done to change the flow of the system when there is undoubtedly some things that needs adjusting.

As far as probe league I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the concept of a probe league much more rather with the execution. Probes aren't enjoying their probe league and this is simply going to kill the main developmental process of zealot hockey (which in turn is very VERY bad).
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Re: Season 9 Suggestions

Post by sidtkid » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:56 am

Blitz wrote: As far as probe league I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the concept of a probe league much more rather with the execution. Probes aren't enjoying their probe league and this is simply going to kill the main developmental process of zealot hockey (which in turn is very VERY bad).
Agreed. The major issue with probe league is that there are too many players wanting to play for four spots. The retention rate has become so bad that a probe team initially with 11 players ends up being 4 or 5, then when they don't show up, others aren't there to fill the voids. Hence, the attendance issues. We can't rely on everyone being patient all the time just for the chance to play for 20 minutes.

In addition, if probes are being used as a developmental league, it should be run by an entirely different group of people, while still being affiliated with their ZHL team, just like the AHL and the NHL.
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Re: Season 9 Suggestions

Post by Watermelon » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:30 pm

so theres just too many active probes for 10 teams? (i genuinely dont know, out of touch)

somebody once suggested having more probe teams than zhl, having FA draft funnel into only probe, and having a "bump up" waiver system where zhl teams could opt to drop a player down to probe in exhange for a probe player or a dropped player from another team.

its an interesting alternative to trades/FA. it allows the best probes to obtain zhl spots when they become available (which should theoretically free up spots for more probes to play as well), and lets zhl teams get rid of inactive deadweight in exchange for active players.

the natural downside would be if a team drops a good but inactive player, that player gets picked up by another team and becomes active again.
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Re: Season 9 Suggestions

Post by Entropy » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:00 pm

Watermelon wrote:so theres just too many active probes for 10 teams? (i genuinely dont know, out of touch)

somebody once suggested having more probe teams than zhl, having FA draft funnel into only probe, and having a "bump up" waiver system where zhl teams could opt to drop a player down to probe in exhange for a probe player or a dropped player from another team.

its an interesting alternative to trades/FA. it allows the best probes to obtain zhl spots when they become available (which should theoretically free up spots for more probes to play as well), and lets zhl teams get rid of inactive deadweight in exchange for active players.

the natural downside would be if a team drops a good but inactive player, that player gets picked up by another team and becomes active again.
This should be implemented. Just like NHL.
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Re: Season 9 Suggestions

Post by Sly » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:46 pm

wawmoose wrote:I've watched more probe games on stream than ZHL, and aside from a couple toxic games; which will always happen; what exactly is everyone seeing that is so bad about probe that I am not? - It's serving multiple purposes decently well at once, but not being perfect in any certain role
I think there are serious problems with ZHPL. First, the skill gap between the best players (mostly Euro ZHL players) and the worst players is astronomical. Second, the system of restrictions on ZHL vs ZHPL games was confusing and largely unnecessary. Third, there was a pretty big lack of organization and leadership for probe resulting in inactivity, chaos, and a low quality of gameplay. New players are told that they need to play probe to get better, but depending on their skill level they don't get to play or they get obliterated by a team of more experienced players while their teammates are just as bad as them.

Separating the two leagues completely could work if done correctly, but to give you a personal example: I wouldn't play ZHPL again. If I'm not drafted in ZHL next season, I just won't play. I don't say that out of arrogance or in any other negative way--my point is that ZHPL was simply not fun at all. Almost every game (understanding that my team was one of the worst examples, but still) was a blowout, involved poor teamwork, and well below average gameplay. Conversely, ZHL was fun even as a goalie. Ling was a great owner all season from what I saw. He trusted me to play even when I was still learning and making mistakes, and I was much better off for it. It'll (hopefully) work out for him too in the playoffs.

As a new player and as the person who probably commentated the most games (ZHL and ZHPL), I had a unique perspective of the quality and organization of the leagues. From what I've seen, the only way new/poor players improve is by playing with and against players who are better than themselves. To do that, the league structure has to encourage teams to utilize lower-skilled players alongside better players. The least painful way to do that is to make it so that one lower-skilled player is surrounded by 3 high-quality players. That is why I've suggested what I have in this thread, and why I would lean toward supporting having an expanded ZHL league, scrapping ZHPL, and replacing ZHPL with an all-inclusive 'pick up' league where players of any quality can choose to organize themselves. I implemented a similar system in Banjoball to some degree of success.
wawmoose wrote:Aside from that, why so many changes suggested? This season has went very smoothly so far. Sure a couple rules could use some tweaking, but this was the least bad season overall, and by far the best managed season (TY Tom and LMs) I've been in on all accounts (S3-S8). Literally 0 major issues; just some hurt egos.
I don't really think I suggested that many changes, if you think about it. A lot of it is process/procedural more than significant structural changes. Ultimately though this isn't meant to be a "you should do all of this immediately!"; I'm just sharing my thoughts/ideas for you/your leadership to take note of, if you're interested.
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Re: Season 9 Suggestions

Post by wawmoose » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:15 pm

I'm too lazy to type paragraphs on why probe should not br separated from ZHL, and how that would make more problems than it would solve, so I'll stream my thoughts sometime soon and link em here.

Discussion is good though, and you raise some very real issues, I just don't agree with the solution
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Re: Season 9 Suggestions

Post by Blitz » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:17 pm

Sly wrote: That is why I've suggested what I have in this thread, and why I would lean toward supporting having an expanded ZHL league, scrapping ZHPL, and replacing ZHPL with an all-inclusive 'pick up' league where players of any quality can choose to organize themselves. I implemented a similar system in Banjoball to some degree of success.
Fastest way to make even more of the (whatever leftovers that haven't already quit) top 10 ZHL skaters to stop caring.
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Re: Season 9 Suggestions

Post by forumusername » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:15 pm

if ur bad u belong in probe lets keep ti that way ty
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