What's the Point of Probe?

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Re: What's the Point of Probe?

Post by Watermelon » Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:40 pm

Some ZHL teams don't even use their 7th, 6th, or even 5th rounders. What are we going to do with those people if they cant play in either league?

And to answer your question, probe was founded by Kyle in season 2 for inclusion, not improvement. No amount of league rule adjustments can make you better at the game, you gotta do that yourself
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Re: What's the Point of Probe?

Post by Kaigo1 » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:21 pm

Blitz wrote:what I'm trying to say is that probe league s8 was very disastrous, the competition was atrocious and the attendance was beyond shoddy. This season the team count was reduced in order to increase competition in the league, which should promote more enthusiasm overall increasing attendance, and as a backup plan we had the re-draft. Obviously attendance isn't too much better (although no forfeits yet), but the competition is ten times higher IMO.
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Adding to what Watermelon said, there is nothing you can do to the rules to make players better; you'll have to find that from practicing and learning from better players, even getting your butt whooped every once and a while will teach you a lesson or two if you look deeply into what went wrong. The only goal that can be accomplished from probe is inclusion. The only thing that can fix competition is better drafting. Improvement comes from yourself and learning from others.
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Re: What's the Point of Probe?

Post by Mythic » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:30 pm

If the point of probe league is inclusion, then maybe the playoff cutoff for probe league should be removed, so that all probe teams qualify for playoffs (like how it was pre-S8). I think this would decrease the incentive for probe teams to field only their top players, and hopefully allow some playing time for players who aren't quite as developed. This way the competitive nature of probe league will be left for the playoffs and inclusion will be the focus for the regular season.
Improvement doesn't come from playing in two probe league games a week, that simply isn't how it works.
Although most players won't improve from simply playing in probe league, I do believe there is an increased motivation to improve that comes with the expectation of playing in league games, which results in more practice and preparation.

On another note, I also think that 50% locked players that end up dropping to the 5th or 6th round probably either shouldn't be allowed to play in probe or should have their attendance lock combined for both leagues (perhaps league management should sort this out on a case by base basis?). This is because the 50% lock artificially lowers their draft value and actually allows them to play in even more games than a full-time ZHL player due to the separation of leagues (18 total games, since they can play in 8/14 ZHL games AND 10/18 ZHPL games).
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Re: What's the Point of Probe?

Post by Sly » Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:27 pm

I'm glad everyone is starting to realize this. I pointed this out (and posed this question) more than a full season ago, and I've repeated my position on what the probe league is and should be several times since then.

The reality is, there will always be a group of players who aren't good enough to get playing time in either league. That group will, I assume, grow considerably larger in Cryoblade. But for now, most players of moderate skill can be included in the current system. As Water said, improvement is everyone's individual responsibility. I will say though that the best way to improve is definitely *not* by playing probe, but by playing higher level IHs and in ZHL. This is why I advocated for additional teams (and scrapping probe) before the season.

Ultimately, the playerbase must decide between two separate paths. We can either try to maintain as much as possible a steadily declining playerbase of talent to keep the top league competitive while excluding lower quality players, or we can suffer decreased talent to include lower quality players (by having more teams) in hopes that this investment results in a long-term increase in the number of talented players.

Hopefully these problems will be moot once Cryoblade is released, but for now, that is our choice. We should make it coherently and with full knowledge of the consequences of both paths.

Personally, the solution I advocate prior to this season is still the one I believe would work best for our current situation: having at least 12 ZHL teams, and hosting a 'pickup/house' league that everyone can participate in without set times or teams.
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Re: What's the Point of Probe?

Post by stealthmeh » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:21 pm

Mets wrote:IMO there should be no attendance lock (at least for ZHL) since it's Sundays only
I kind of agree with this but then we need separate sign ups for probe and zhl entirely which prob is a good idea so we dont have situations where slide gets drafted for probe by accident when he didnt want to be in it apparently.
Watermelon wrote:Some ZHL teams don't even use their 7th, 6th, or even 5th rounders. What are we going to do with those people if they cant play in either league?

And to answer your question, probe was founded by Kyle in season 2 for inclusion, not improvement. No amount of league rule adjustments can make you better at the game, you gotta do that yourself
Yes the original purpose of probe was to give your 4th and lower rounders who do not consistently play in ZHL a chance at some ice time.

@mythic Season 8 and 9 management has been moving in a direction of making probe league more competitive that is why not all teams makes playoffs.

Personally I would prefer to get rid of probe league and have just more ZHL teams but this community doesn't have a consistent pool of goalies (top 4 goalies seem to retire every season and most of community doesn't want to goalie still in general) and also not that many viable owners so it is very difficulty to make more than 8 fully competitive ZHL teams at this time.
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Re: What's the Point of Probe?

Post by Resteral » Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:30 pm

inclusion and improvement if you dont think it does both you are ridiculous.
The reason why you dont think it would improve or include you is because you aren't practicing with your team, you arent being taught, you arent even trying to learn. Playing more games isn't how you get better, but im hopin most of you people were athletes and you guys should know this. Yes playing games helps get better but playing games practicing things you have learned by watching others, or by keeping up the pace.
Probe clearly does include people, i apologize for those people aren't good enough to be probe level players for a solution [have the probe redraft and have everyone else just freeagent]

Also why not have probes be probe owners, i agree with biz where i came in s8 loved it played a bunch had huge motivation to improve myself. This season i wanted to get involved with the community a little bit and participate in possibly being a probe owner because s9 the teams were seperate and I was like oh i can owner even as a probe. Well Bap naaaatt shut down by the s10 commissioner to ruin my hopes and dreams and give a second term owner to shaftmeme and zhl players. (yes i know because of sly you consider him zhler)

But Zhlers i don't think need to be in probe roster. There is a problem though, there is a probe skill level cap. For example dustdevil can carry his team, but not as much for zhl (yes we seen him do it ooo-lalala-blowme) but these probes because of the low attendance rate, and slow team-progression rate, competitiveness is there for most teams but forces different type and style of gameplay.
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Re: What's the Point of Probe?

Post by Bizarro » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:07 am

I'm glad we got some real discussion past those shit posts. Good job friends.
Blitz wrote:So basically if that doesn't help, what I'm trying to say is that probe league s8 was very disastrous, the competition was atrocious and the attendance was beyond shoddy. This season the team count was reduced in order to increase competition in the league, which should promote more enthusiasm overall increasing attendance, and as a backup plan we had the re-draft. Obviously attendance isn't too much better (although no forfeits yet), but the competition is ten times higher IMO.

The point of probe league is inclusion / league for those not in ZHL. This isn't a developmental league, there are players in probe who have played way longer than a lot of ZHL players. Some people will never improve to the level of ZHL, and that's ok. Improvement doesn't come from playing in two probe league games a week, that simply isn't how it works. So no this isn't a developmental league. There is no problem in participating in a B-league (which is what probe is). Just my opinion though.
The rise is competition seen in Probe this season was fabricated by granting full eligibility/attendance to every ZHL sub (balancing the scales) - as opposed to last season where it was limited to a few cases. While I believe this did create more balance, I feel it is the wrong balance because Probe level competition was simply replaced with ZHL bench/locked competition.
Blitz wrote:This is the exact situation I was trying to avoid, I didn't want teams dieng off and have to look for their 10th rounded or whatever to pull through , that's a 1/100 chance.
If the point or goal of the league is for inclusion; why is it 1/100 for a new player to elevate, and why is that situation being avoided all-together? I don't quite understand this.
Sly wrote:The reality is, there will always be a group of players who aren't good enough to get playing time in either league. That group will, I assume, grow considerably larger in Cryoblade. But for now, most players of moderate skill can be included in the current system. As Water said, improvement is everyone's individual responsibility. I will say though that the best way to improve is definitely *not* by playing probe, but by playing higher level IHs and in ZHL. This is why I advocated for additional teams (and scrapping probe) before the season.

Personally, the solution I advocate prior to this season is still the one I believe would work best for our current situation: having at least 12 ZHL teams, and hosting a 'pickup/house' league that everyone can participate in without set times or teams.
I agree that Individual probe games are too few and far between to be sufficient activity for improvement. However it is not just about those specific games but rather the team aspects the league structure provides (as Kiago spoke of for his team) such as practice (with the same players), roles, dedication/activity, and competitive drive that aren't really provided to the community through simple pub games. These are the things most probe players are lacking and attributes the ZHL subs already possess that make them ZHL subs. Repeating the probe process 7 times with the same guys just makes it ZHL2, and won't grow the player-base when the mindset is that of trying to avoid having 10th round players participating.

I also agree that the best solution for including more players is either more teams or a more open-ended league structure (such as an ELO/Rating or pick-up league). Unfortunately the opposite has occurred with S9.
stealthmeh wrote:
Mets wrote:IMO there should be no attendance lock (at least for ZHL) since it's Sundays only
I kind of agree with this but then we need separate sign ups for probe and zhl entirely which prob is a good idea...
I feel this is the best idea thus far. If you want to truly separate the leagues and teams; then don't pull them off of the same sign-ups. I also agree with Mets' statement however that is another topic entirely.
Resteral wrote:inclusion and improvement if you dont think it does both you are ridiculous.
The reason why you dont think it would improve or include you is because you aren't practicing with your team, you arent being taught, you arent even trying to learn.
I mean I guess mostly every post in this thread is quite ridiculous. This topic is to remedy the flaws in the structure/purpose of the Probe league since we're going into 2 seasons (or more, I have no knowledge further) of probe being a playground for ZHL subs & locked players to beat down pubs. My personal case is not in question as I was lucky enough (1/100 - blitz) to be included, but rather the other 99.

Thanks for the tips though.
Resteral wrote:Also why not have probes be probe owners
Yea... about that.
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Re: What's the Point of Probe?

Post by Watermelon » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:26 am

separate signups dont solve anything lol

what happens when dustdevil signs up for probe? what are you going to do? the only reason probe players are in probe is because they didnt get drafted onto a zhl team.... "probe" is not a skill level that can be assessed without a zhl draft coming first
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Re: What's the Point of Probe?

Post by Bizarro » Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:09 am

Watermelon wrote:what happens when dustdevil signs up for probe? what are you going to do? the only reason probe players are in probe is because they didnt get drafted onto a zhl team.... "probe" is not a skill level that can be assessed without a zhl draft coming first
Use common sense?
Players locking roles/attendance or management artificially increasing competition with less teams doesn't suddenly make players "probe" level.
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Re: What's the Point of Probe?

Post by Resteral » Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:26 am

Biz if you want this fixed in your eyes you're going to need to set up a clan league
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