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Re: What's the Point of Probe?

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:58 am
by JMoney
Bizarro wrote:
Watermelon wrote:what happens when dustdevil signs up for probe? what are you going to do? the only reason probe players are in probe is because they didnt get drafted onto a zhl team.... "probe" is not a skill level that can be assessed without a zhl draft coming first
Use common sense?
Players locking roles/attendance or management artificially increasing competition with less teams doesn't suddenly make players "probe" level.

"competition" was just used as a buzzword like how management teams use "synergy" and whatnot. you could make almost any change and pass it of as being more "competitive". Less teams? More individual talent per team! More competitive! More teams? Talent spread out more throughout the league, more parity! More competition!

Re: What's the Point of Probe?

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:05 am
by Blitz
Bizarro wrote:I'm glad we got some real discussion past those shit posts. Good job friends.
Cleaned up the cancer for you.

Re: What's the Point of Probe?

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:41 am
by Watermelon
Bizarro wrote:
Watermelon wrote:what happens when dustdevil signs up for probe? what are you going to do? the only reason probe players are in probe is because they didnt get drafted onto a zhl team.... "probe" is not a skill level that can be assessed without a zhl draft coming first
Use common sense?
Players locking roles/attendance or management artificially increasing competition with less teams doesn't suddenly make players "probe" level.
you didnt answer my question. what are you going to do with separate signups when dustdevil signs up for probe?

Re: What's the Point of Probe?

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:16 am
by Bizarro
Watermelon wrote:you didnt answer my question. what are you going to do with separate signups when dustdevil signs up for probe?
Use common sense... to determine if a player belongs in probe or not; same as when the LMs are approving these free agents right now.
In this specific case it's fairly clear that a player who started in (and won) a league finals and was then drafted top 40 (while being locked 50% and locked skater) doesn't really belong in little league.

Re: What's the Point of Probe?

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:40 am
by Watermelon
Bizarro wrote:
Watermelon wrote:you didnt answer my question. what are you going to do with separate signups when dustdevil signs up for probe?
Use common sense... to determine if a player belongs in probe or not; same as when the LMs are approving these free agents right now.
In this specific case it's fairly clear that a player who started in (and won) a league finals and was then drafted top 40 (while being locked 50% and locked skater) doesn't really belong in little league.
k.. so you want a committee of people to decide who is and isn't too good for probe, and then move their signups into zhl if they're "too good for probe"? Do you not realize that "probe tier skill" is a subjective value with respect to the ZHL draft? Probe level literally means "not in zhl", so how are you going to differentiate between top probe players and bottom zhl players without having them in the same collection?

What's actually going to happen is you're going to have some arbitrary judgement of players' skill, where some probe players get snubbed and can't play EITHER league because they didn't get into probe but they aren't good enough for zhl, while other good players get overlooked and continue to dominate probe because you have no frame of reference for player value.

Re: What's the Point of Probe?

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:05 am
by Bizarro
Watermelon wrote:k.. so you want a committee of people to decide who is and isn't too good for probe, and then move their signups into zhl if they're "too good for probe"? Do you not realize that "probe tier skill" is a subjective value with respect to the ZHL draft? Probe level literally means "not in zhl", so how are you going to differentiate between top probe players and bottom zhl players without having them in the same collection?

What's actually going to happen is you're going to have some arbitrary judgement of players' skill, where some probe players get snubbed and can't play EITHER league because they didn't get into probe but they aren't good enough for zhl, while other good players get overlooked and continue to dominate probe because you have no frame of reference for player value.
This already occurs in regards to separate signups such as the free agency of the past two leagues. Sometimes discretion must be used; and can't always be perfect. But could it be worse than having no restrictions?
In my opinion if you are seeking separate leagues as was advertised for S9 then yes - that is what should occur. For example you don't see bench players from the NBA playing in D-League games.

I suppose it all comes down to a choice by management for what they prioritize, similar to what Dark stated earlier:
l)arkangel wrote:The dilemma is deciding between risking round 4-5 players getting near 0 play time, or giving the 9-12 round picks not getting playtime in ZHPL.
And then we arrive back to the topic; trying to figure out what we hope to accomplish by having a Probe league.

Re: What's the Point of Probe?

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:17 am
by Kaigo1
Yes it could be worse than having no restrictions; probe is better imo for seperating the leagues and not including the first four rounds of ZHL. Like that's all probe really needed. The only thing that went wrong was people not picking dust, due to 1. Dust asking before the season started to be in probe 2. Him locking 50% to force not being higher round 3. People picking friends over top talent 4. Some known owners straight up not liking dust due to his allegations in the past (Tenkz). 5. Owners having different ideas as to what top talent is
Other than that, nothing is really wrong with this season for probe other than a small inconveniences. It's debatable whether or not more teams would have been better for probe, but this season didn't get as many signups as seasons before. And as watermelon was saying which I have said in the past, having a committee to decide who is ZHL talent or not is preposterous. People simply have different ideas who the top talent is.
But I will say, everyone in probe is beatable given the time we have til playoffs to prepare. It's up to you and your team if you want to win it. As for 9-12 rounders "not getting playtime", that should be completely up to you. I as a player have no issue giving up my spot to newer players that want to play and have let people know that.

Re: What's the Point of Probe?

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:49 pm
by stealthmeh
What I was going to do this season (back when I was considering being commish) was have ZHL sign ups first and do the draft for ZHL. Then after ZHL draft start probe sign ups after with the restriction of if you were top 3 rounds in ZHL you could not sign up (I was going to allow 4th rounders since often they do not get to play more than 50% of games in ZHL since they are either 1 server support or a conditional starter). Then depending on the # of sign up for ZHPL we would decide how many teams. I also wanted to remove 50% locks (was kind of the point of having Sundays only for ZHL but there were still several ppl that wanted it available and I do think some players 50% locked for server reasons not attendance reasons which I think is fine since even in my case i would prefer to never play west server unless I need to).

I think if you have separate sign ups and have probe sign ups start after ZHL draft that you get more viable ZHPL teams but some people wanted the option to have 8 ZHL and ZHPL teams with same owners for both so that is how we ended up keeping things together I think (also letting 4th rounders in probe makes it easier to support 10-12 ZHPL teams safely, was even considering 3rd rounders off role allowed in as long as it allowed more viable ZHPL teams).

Re: What's the Point of Probe?

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:47 pm
by Watermelon
Bizarro wrote: In my opinion if you are seeking separate leagues as was advertised for S9 then yes - that is what should occur. For example you don't see bench players from the NBA playing in D-League games.
5th-7th rounders aka "the bench" arent getting paid to sit there and do nothing, and most of them are more dedicated to the game than those 8th and below. If you lock that group of players out of ZHPL, when they barely get to play ZHL, youre going to lose more active players than at any other time in ZHL's 2 and a half years of existence. guaranteed. I certainly wouldnt stick around if i was "too good" for probe but "not good enough" for zhl. You'd also effectively be penalizing any probe player who improves enough to get into the last rounds of the ZHL draft (unless they only sign up for probe, then you'll be removing them and they dont get to play anything). "Shit i got better at the game, now i cant play probe and im stuck playing 1-2 games a season" - every 6th and 7th rounder in your proposed system.

@stealth doing probe signups and draft after the zhl draft is basically what was done this season, but restricted to 5th round and below


sounds to me like s10 probe should start at 6th round instead of 5th if we keep 8 teams. much better solution than the separate signup nonsense

Re: What's the Point of Probe?

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:35 pm
by Demosthenes
Probe draft needs happen after ZHl, with The fourth fifth and sixth rounders for ZHl being put back into the pool for new probe draft ( if they want to sign up for both leagues). Then probe captains should be seeded just like ZHl, and have a new draft with forth rounders and up. This way people can decide if they want to play probe depending on multiple factors. There should be no attendance locking for probe. After the first four or five games captains should be allowed to drop inactive players ( people with no games attended) then a free agent draft can occur. Teams that dropped high round picks due to inactivity ( 4th or fifth rounder that never shows but drafted as key player) should get first seed picks.
Lemme know all the reasons I haven't thought these ideas out and how theyll never work