Shot Clock

Post suggestions you have here that relate to the game's mechanics
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Re: Shot Clock

Post by MoS » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:16 am

I like the shot clock idea. 20-25 seconds sounds reasonable.
I also like the idea from lacrosse.

I would add though that wasting time in a game of soccer for example is acceptable, but a soccer game duration is 90 mins - a game of ZH is much shorter, thus wasting time is proportionally more efficient.
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Re: Shot Clock

Post by TeeKay » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:24 am

I like the idea a lot. What I like about it is:
1) that it doesn't seem intrusive to normal/valid playing styles as shown in your data, and
2) that it guarantees possession change for bitch walking, which face offs don't, allowing teams to play slightly more normal defense vs bitch walk.
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Re: Shot Clock

Post by Watermelon » Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:49 pm

hatestabkill wrote: In section B, I don't believe the puck should reset to the goalie if neither team has possession at the end of the shot clock. That scenario is not defined. I would say if the defensive team gets there first, play on, and if the offensive team gets there first, only then is the penalty called, kind of like how offsides is handled in soccer.
I considered this, but it has one major problem: A team could soak their shot clock to the last seconds, then tap the puck into a corner and sit around the corner, waiting for the other team to grab it so they can immediately steal for another whole shot clock. Giving the other team the puck directly is the only way to guarantee their possessions.

The way I measured possession, the only time no team has possession is when a shot rebounds off the goalie's forcefield, in which case the team that eventually recovers the rebound gets possession for a new shot clock (the possessions starting with RB on the doc - theres a gap in timestamp to show neither team with possession).

Otherwise, whoever had clear possession (skater holds 1-2 seconds, goalie had the puck, or pass was completed) last will retain possession even when the puck has gone loose. This is to avoid the scenario where a team could soak their shot clock, and then just get a resteal or bounce it off the boards to reset it. Your shot clock only resets if the other team gets clear control of the puck or you get a shot on net.

Of course - one thing I left unspecified is how the teams might be positioned when a goalie gets the puck from shot clock expiration. Hypothetically, we could discourage teams from intentional shot clock violation by making the violation less safe than just taking a shot at the end of the timer or passing the puck to the other team. For instance, the team in violation might be positioned in a didadvantaged way to defend when the other team's goalie gets the puck. Or perhaps they spawn with their Z boosts off cooldown at the halfcourt line. Theres a lot of things that could be done with that.



One thing I'd like to hit home with:

What a shot clock does, that caster rulings can never do, is it ensures that every player in the game understands what is allowed and not allowed to take place. No longer will a team thats losing have to sit there and wonder, "are they stalling or looking for a pass? will the caster call it if this guy holds another 20 seconds, or do i have to yolo?". This confusion of rule enforcement should not exist in a video game.
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Re: Shot Clock

Post by daggius » Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:17 pm

-MLS does not have a shot clock. Why? From my understanding, the refs account for how much time is being wasted, and they add on that much time to the end of the game, extending the game. There are also other rules that make it difficult to waste possession time, such as the goalie's inability to pick up the ball if you pass it backwards. The game also doesn't end at a specific time like most sports, but instead will often extend to when a final shot is taken (I had to research this, I don't watch MLS).
Actually, timewasting while the ball is in play is an excellent and powerful strategy in MLS and in all soccer and the refs do not add time for it. Exactly like bitchwalking in Zealot Hockey, the team in the lead tries to maintain possession. This is accomplished by playing keep away by passing it around or by taking it to the corner flag and shielding it. Spain was exceptional at possession play and won the 2010 world cup due to their tactics of passing so quickly and without error that other teams could scarsely even get to touch the ball.

What refs do add time for is gamesmanship, which is time wasting when the ball is not in play. For example, the ball goes out of play and you take 30 seconds slowly walking after it to go and get it and then take forever doing your throw in. This type of time wasting is not possible anyway in Zealot Hockey since the timer stops when the puck is not in play.

There is not a shot clock in soccer and there is not one in hockey and there should not be. Possession play is a great part of the game and you should try to understand it better by the rationalization that, basically, the team that has taken the initiative to score the go-ahead goal and take the lead in the game, deserves the advantage that they now enjoy. They have earned the advantage of now being able to bitchwalk. No one can bitchwalk for an entire game, its not completely broken. Being in the lead gives you the luxury of bitchwalking if you want to control the game and should be understood and excepted and not turned into fucking basketball, a horrible game where people rush back and forth and there is nonsense such as back court violations and shot clocks.

It should also be mentioned that there are great risks with bitchwalking in soccer, the same which exist in Zealot hockey. For example, you pass back to your goalie and he fumbles the ball/puck and an own goal occurs. Or your last defender accidentally turns over the ball/puck and creates a turnover. Its a great part of the game which adds another dimension of strategy and allows possession play to be a thing, and not forcing people to just mindlessly go back and forth, but allowing them to be more creative.
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Re: Shot Clock

Post by Watermelon » Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:11 pm

@daggs you can in fact bitchwalk an entire period, we call it swiftwalking (going around your own net in a circle, passing out very easily with rounded rink to whoevers left wide open from 2v1 pressure, skate around until 2 people commit to new skater, pass back behind your net again, zz). This can also be accomplished without going behind your net if your team is smart about it. We already have casters who are supposed to be calling teams for bitchwalking - why use referees when we play a video game. The game's code should enforce all of its rules. We need an ingame nerf, and a shot clock will do best at preserving standard gameplay (see my data, gameplay will not be affected much) while also nerfing bitchwalking (when you know the other team has to come at you, you can stick to your defense and wait to get the puck).

It's common sense.
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Re: Shot Clock

Post by Kholin » Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:28 am

I was at first iffy on the idea of a shot clock, but I think Water's argument is too strong to ignore or have any meaningful disagreement with besides "but we've always done it this way." The current system of having the caster needing to make the call is inherently flawed, and the subjectivity of the call means that there is no way we can go through a ZHL season without some sort of controversy. The shot clock, if created as Water has entailed, removes that subjective part of the game, and will as a whole make ZHL games both more interesting and fair. If anything, the 30 second clock he has mentioned is far longer than any team needs to shoot unless they are specifically stalling for time. 30 seconds is a long fucking time on the ice. An 8th of a period per play is more than reasonable to expect from teams. As water said, It's common sense.
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Re: Shot Clock

Post by Blitz » Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:54 pm

Kholin wrote:I was at first iffy on the idea of a shot clock, but I think Water's argument is too strong to ignore or have any meaningful disagreement with besides "but we've always done it this way." The current system of having the caster needing to make the call is inherently flawed, and the subjectivity of the call means that there is no way we can go through a ZHL season without some sort of controversy. The shot clock, if created as Water has entailed, removes that subjective part of the game, and will as a whole make ZHL games both more interesting and fair. If anything, the 30 second clock he has mentioned is far longer than any team needs to shoot unless they are specifically stalling for time. 30 seconds is a long fucking time on the ice. An 8th of a period per play is more than reasonable to expect from teams. As water said, It's common sense.
I agree that bitchwalking should in theory be eliminated, but some time wasting is completely acceptable. It's fuckig stupid to mandate that if you're up 1 goal in the last 1 min of a game that you're forced to play offense and try and score. That's the upmost stupid thing I've ever heard. It's acceptable to waste a little bit of time, but swift walking for 2 minutes is too much. Perhaps in the third period increase the shot clock to 45 seconds? @Watermelon
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Re: Shot Clock

Post by themusic » Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:55 pm

If i were to walk it as the game is now, i would probably be doing it with about 30 seconds left in the game. In this scenario the shot clock wouldnt solve the issue right?

Id be for a shotclock, as it would probably only expire in rare cases, but idk how much it would help at 30 sec, but lower numbers may create too much unwanted urgency, idk.

It would solve long swiftwalks though, which may be more important than standard bitchwalks.

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Re: Shot Clock

Post by Blitz » Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:00 pm

themusic wrote:If i were to walk it as the game is now, i would probably be doing it with about 30 seconds left in the game. In this scenario the shot clock wouldnt solve the issue right?

Id be for a shotclock, as it would probably only expire in rare cases, but idk how much it would help at 30 sec, but lower numbers may create too much unwanted urgency, idk.

It would solve long swiftwalks though, which may be more important than standard bitchwalks.

HMMM

We posted really close in time. What do you think of my above suggestion? 30 second shot clock until say the last 2:00 of the third period which then the shot clock is reverted to a 45 second timer? Do you think that any sort of time wasting is unacceptable, or should some time wasting be allowed at the end of the game?
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Re: Shot Clock

Post by DerrocK » Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:34 pm

I would rather have no shot clock in the first 2 periods and then in the clutch period add like a 20 sec shotclock or maybe even only in the last 2 mins of the 3rd period
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