New mechanics testing

Post suggestions you have here that relate to the game's mechanics
MoS
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:51 pm
Battle.net Name: MoS
Battle.net Char Code: 671
Battle.net Server: EU

Re: New mechanics testing

Post by MoS » Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:21 am

Basically, removing the automatic steal from boost would be that you need to manually do it. It would be a bit more difficult, and require an advanced timing rather than a simple one. Several times I moved away from a boost, to move back thinking the steal window is done for, but it wasn't. You get away with a rather big stealing window, way bigger than the one you have by manually left clicking - thats my main issue.

And for the defensive case, if you count on your boost steal to steal back from the offensive player, you usually spam the shit out of the puck to clear it at the same time. If you just boost steal you will get restolen, even more easily than restealing a yolo.... I don't really follow this argument.

I don't want to remove the boost itself, just seperate the stealing mechanic from the boosting mechanic, having thus a standard stealing range/window/cd/timing, while it's a bit wild right now.
User avatar
ZachSmack
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:53 pm
Battle.net Name: ZachSmack
Battle.net Char Code: 340
Battle.net Server: NA
Location: East Troy, Wisconsin

Re: New mechanics testing

Post by ZachSmack » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:45 am

Watermelon wrote:I personally wouldn't mind boost steal getting removed, it would remove some of the confusion involved with driving, because it's hard to really tell where the boost steal timing begins and ends, so you're never 100% sure if you should also be left clicking to resteal during the boost.

That being said, I don't think it's very necessary, so I'm pretty indifferent to it.


Forcefield cancel is a good idea.

Onetimer change is fine so long as (after players get used to it) it doesn't become a major nuisance. Any non-major change to improve latency gets an A+ in my book


pls no fights though, that idea is pretty bad. zh thrives on its simplicity of gameplay, we don't need fights. maybe in standalone where you can build the game from the ground up with fights in mind... but not zh
+1 to every point here
User avatar
Bulbasaaur
Posts: 277
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 7:22 pm
Battle.net Name: Bulbasaaur
Battle.net Char Code: 615
Battle.net Server: NA

Re: New mechanics testing

Post by Bulbasaaur » Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:10 am

keep boost steals pls, sometimes i get lazy and just boost steal instead of clicking :D
User avatar
krazymen
Posts: 1170
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:10 pm
Battle.net Name: krazymen
Battle.net Char Code: 249
Battle.net Server: NA

Re: New mechanics testing

Post by krazymen » Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:42 am

MoS wrote:Basically, removing the automatic steal from boost would be that you need to manually do it. It would be a bit more difficult, and require an advanced timing rather than a simple one. Several times I moved away from a boost, to move back thinking the steal window is done for, but it wasn't. You get away with a rather big stealing window, way bigger than the one you have by manually left clicking - thats my main issue.

And for the defensive case, if you count on your boost steal to steal back from the offensive player, you usually spam the shit out of the puck to clear it at the same time. If you just boost steal you will get restolen, even more easily than restealing a yolo.... I don't really follow this argument.

I don't want to remove the boost itself, just seperate the stealing mechanic from the boosting mechanic, having thus a standard stealing range/window/cd/timing, while it's a bit wild right now.
But its not a simple timing tho... thats why you dont see it often in low tier play... only thing you see in low tier plays are yolos and its good because they dont know how to counter them... If you move away from a boost and dont get stolen initially then they stole it with a timed click.. not the boost steal, the stealing is instant its not overtime. Also i think the clicking is actually a bigger window with vap stealing the difference is that with boost steal you get more momentum.

For defense, you dont count on the boost to steal, let me try to reexplain. On a defensive click battle the last click wins, a lot of offensive player does this thing where they wont click the defender and instead they will let the defender spam into them and move along with the defender until they get a clear shot or a clear vap steal, the boost stealing helps to get the last steal to spam it away since you can get a steal and then spam it away very quickly instead of trying to spam pass someone. Its also very useful on a 1on1 situation for both the defender and offense, the offense can position himself to get the last steal from the defender and the defender can do the same, if you remove the steal the offense wont have any incentive to position himself to try to get the last steal from the boost it would be way too risky. Rather just boost to a good position at the net and only the defender will have to worry about his positioning boost wise.

The only argument against that might have some merit is the fact that the steal is "random" but even that is far fetched because its obviously not random at all... The radius is just different than clicking normally and its instant with the ability. A lot of people use boost to steal consistently in 1on1 situation to get passed the defender like fable or proster.

I still dont see an issue with the boost steal here, it seems like we would be removing a mechanic that allows for higher skill cap, I feel like removing the steal would kill any attempt to yolo with boost, offense or defensive move as well since the resteal would be much easier.
Bowling trophy (birthday trophy)
Achieved level 105 in starcraft 2
Undefeated in 5v5
self proclaimed director of ironic trophies
MoS
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:51 pm
Battle.net Name: MoS
Battle.net Char Code: 671
Battle.net Server: EU

Re: New mechanics testing

Post by MoS » Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:06 pm

I think I get what you mean, it adds another layer to the stealing, positioning, etc.
But I mean, a similar move could still be made with good timing. As you said, momentum, and I'll add surprise, are what make an offensive boost steal work...
Restealing would be easier if your timing on stealing is bad. If it's as good as the current boost steal is, then nothing changes. What makes you more susceptible to getting restolen is you having possession of the puck in the stealing range, so it's more linked to boost, distance, speed and mementum than actual clicking since you can steal someone boosting.

I don't think the skill cap would be changed, on the opposite, having a good boost steal would be harder. And at least on EU, medium tier plays are full of terrible 50-50 (actually way less than that) yolos... Which when they work make medium players believe they're doing right... Nerfing it would teach players to be efficient at defending correctly and smartly, and would thus force players to not only bait yolos on offense, but build constructive and creative play.

Every move made by a boost steal can still be made with a boost and a left click steal with the right timing, that's why I don't understand why it's defended that much. I'm just defending the fact of making it less easy to do.

Most of yolos and steals in higher ihs are made by combining a boost and a vap steal, grabbing a puck "on the way", so its achievable, and those would not even be changed.

Edit: that might be my playstyle and humble opinion, but I wouldn't be too unhappy to get rid of most yolo plays both on offense and defense :p
Some players are actually trying to set up complex plays rather than impatiently take a risk at every action ^^

Edit2: if I may add, the few times I use boost steal alone are as you say to "hopefully" (I am adding that) get the last click out of a click battle, or just when I'm afraid of clicking too much because it's hardly controlable. Having the steal on left click makes it more controlable since it's the same behaviour as the normal click...
User avatar
krazymen
Posts: 1170
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:10 pm
Battle.net Name: krazymen
Battle.net Char Code: 249
Battle.net Server: NA

Re: New mechanics testing

Post by krazymen » Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:58 pm

Having the last click in a click battle is not a chance taken by the poster using if boost its calculated, it would be different with a steak and click for 1 very simple thing called delay and also influence by reaction time because the boost steal is instant that's the most important factor. There's no delay because it's literally coded as an hotkey that boost and steal at the same time. That's what im trying to say so no a boost and click steal would not reproduce the same thing if you have to steal with your boost currently it rarely works simply because you already failed if you have to click usually it's to be safe and not leave the other guy alone on the goalie or to keep the puck on your side of the ice. The risk of yolo boosting is rarely used in high tier game, we shouldn't balance the gsme for low or medium tier play.
Bowling trophy (birthday trophy)
Achieved level 105 in starcraft 2
Undefeated in 5v5
self proclaimed director of ironic trophies
MoS
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:51 pm
Battle.net Name: MoS
Battle.net Char Code: 671
Battle.net Server: EU

Re: New mechanics testing

Post by MoS » Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:16 pm

Fair enough, I think I get your point and respect it. You made some good points about boost stealing I didn't really think about - and some I respect otherwise such as "we shouldn't balance the game for the medium-low tier". That's very true and I agree with that.
I'm not 100% convinced ofc , and hope for other people's input in this discussion. Everything is appreciated, we might have missed something.
User avatar
DerrocK
Posts: 1273
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:46 am
Battle.net Name: Junky
Battle.net Char Code: 0
Battle.net Server: EU
Location: Top 1000 EU

Re: New mechanics testing

Post by DerrocK » Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:43 pm

Well I support the removal of the boost steal because it's convenient for my playstyle since i have high ping, my game is based a lot in predicting which means something hard to predict like an intentional boost steal is detrimental to my gameplay
COTEP W
EZHL S1 W
EU Open W
NA ZHPL S5 W
EUS2 Regular Season W, Commish, AllStar
EU Redline W
EUS6 Commish
Swedish Open 2v2 W
DaGOAT ZHCL Rings: 2
Best Support ZHPL S11
Nº1 EU Forum Poster
Immortals on ice Rings: 3
EUS8 W

Narcissism at its best
BoooM
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:35 pm
Battle.net Name: BoooM
Battle.net Char Code: 0
Battle.net Server: EU

Re: New mechanics testing

Post by BoooM » Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:46 pm

krazymen wrote:Boost stealing does require timing, like music said the stealing happens only at the start which is widely used in high tier offense to make sure the defender cannot resteal. A defender will steal the puck and the offense will boost to immediately resteal and keep the puck, water talked about it during last http://WWW...
I assume you are talking about the example in last WWW where the striker would use boost to pass through the last man by restealing to get away at a moment when it is impossible for the defender to resteal back. This is a situation that I have nearly never seen on EU in high level games. If the last man allows the striker to get behind him while still having boost and the puck in range of any steal opportunity then the defender has already made a huge mistake. This is something that should not happen more often than once in a blue moon and from personal experience is only something that you would ever see work in lower level play or against people that are normally not used to play on defense.
Maybe the NA playstyle is significantly different and thus this is a situation that happens there more often. Maybe, the 3 NA servers and the higher delay resulting from not playing on your home server is something that leads to this being common on NA. Whatever the reason, this situation is something that you basically do not see on EU. From my point of view removing the chance to do this trick would not result in any meaningful difference when a striker tries to pass the last man.

On defense, boosting is the most important aspect, not really about the steal effect of it but it does come in pretty handy. It can save a defender making a mistake, the first thing anyone will learn by playing defense is that if you have your boost you are in good shape, delaying your boost is the most important thing.
I absolutely agree that having boost on defense is very important. It allows you to pressure the attacker in a much more significant way. Positioning in defense varies vastly depending on whether you have boost available or not. However, you said it yourself that it is "not really about the steal effect", so there is no argument against removing steal from boost here.

Stealing from an attacker on the crease with your boost and getting the puck away to the boards is also really good in 2v1.
Sure, but your best bet as defender is still boosting and spamming, since else you are risking
a) putting yourself out of position in case your boost does not steal because you were either too far away or missed by a small margin.
b) allowing the striker a fast reaction resteal, while you fly off into no man's land.
In either case, I do not see any argument why steal on boost should be kept.

But the steal boost is a last resort to get away from someone and you talk as if yoloing was an easy task to do its actually super easy to dodge a yolo and get an easy offense opportunity. Also stealing right after the defense stole the puck from you would nt be the same as boost stealing because it wouldn't be instant youd have to do 2 actions instead of one which means a resteal would be so much easier and youd now be fucked without the puck and no boost to come back, that usage of boost would completely disappear.
Losing the puck to a yolo is something that is always 100% your own fault. It is something that should absolutely never happen if you are last man. That being said, there are very few people on EU, whose yolos succeed an impressive percentage of the time. I almost feel bad asking to remove a feature that allows them to set themselves apart from the rest. But I also do not have any doubt that they would still be able to yolo just as well, if they were required to do a left click when doing it.
The difficulty in yolo'ing is to find the right timing and aim correctly. The added requirement of a left click is something that would not affect the success rate of yolos by any noticeable margin, especially so in high level play.
At the same, removing steal from boost would add a level of consistency in those borderline situations when you are not sure if you are the correct distance to trigger the steal on boost or you still need to left click. It would also allow for a fancy trick when you boost through the puckholder, turn around while keeping your forward momentum and steal behind you.
In my opinion, removing steal from boost would not remove yolos from the game. If anything the added layer of consistency would make it a bit easier to do them.

For defense, you dont count on the boost to steal, let me try to reexplain. On a defensive click battle the last click wins, a lot of offensive player does this thing where they wont click the defender and instead they will let the defender spam into them and move along with the defender until they get a clear shot or a clear vap steal, the boost stealing helps to get the last steal to spam it away since you can get a steal and then spam it away very quickly instead of trying to spam pass someone.
This may be just a difference in philosophy, but in my opinion, removing yourself from the striker as a defender for whatever reason is a risk. Boosting away from him and getting the last steal this way may work 4/5 times or even more often but that one time he manages to steal just when you boost away, you gift the striker a 1v1 against the goalie. Spamming to the side while remaining on top of him seems like the universally better choice.
Yes, the best thing the striker can do is indeed get a steal and turn away from your steal range right away, which is something you can try to counter with boost steal. However, if you remain on top of him and he manages to vap steal from you, you as a defender still provide a level of difficulty for him to score. At the very least you are blocking a shot lane. Often times you would even still be able to contest the puck.
As a defender, I would certainly not mind having boost steal removed. It would probably change at least a bit the way defending works, but I do not think that the change would disproportionately affect the defense.

Its also very useful on a 1on1 situation for both the defender and offense, the offense can position himself to get the last steal from the defender and the defender can do the same, if you remove the steal the offense wont have any incentive to position himself to try to get the last steal from the boost it would be way too risky. Rather just boost to a good position at the net and only the defender will have to worry about his positioning boost wise.
I am not sure if this statement is supposed to argue that removing boost steal would harm the defense or the offense.
Either way, I do not think that it would change much in the striker vs last man situations. I have already explained above why I do not agree that the game would change in any negative way for either side if the "last opportunity boost resteal to get away from a person" is removed from this situation.

I still dont see an issue with the boost steal here, it seems like we would be removing a mechanic that allows for higher skill cap, I feel like removing the steal would kill any attempt to yolo with boost, offense or defensive move as well since the resteal would be much easier.
I disagree 100%. From my point of view removing steal from boost would not harm the success of yolo'ing at all. See my argument about yolo steals above.
On the other hand, I would welcome the consistency of yolo stealing with left click without having to worry that you happen to spam the puck away. You could make an argument that a great player will always be able to judge his boost steal correctly, but given watermelon's post in this thread, it seems like even the best players would welcome the consistency:
Watermelon wrote:I personally wouldn't mind boost steal getting removed, it would remove some of the confusion involved with driving, because it's hard to really tell where the boost steal timing begins and ends, so you're never 100% sure if you should also be left clicking to resteal during the boost.
krazymen wrote:Having the last click in a click battle is not a chance taken by the poster using if boost its calculated, it would be different with a steak and click for 1 very simple thing called delay and also influence by reaction time because the boost steal is instant that's the most important factor. There's no delay because it's literally coded as an hotkey that boost and steal at the same time. That's what im trying to say so no a boost and click steal would not reproduce the same thing if you have to steal with your boost currently it rarely works simply because you already failed if you have to click usually it's to be safe and not leave the other guy alone on the goalie or to keep the puck on your side of the ice.
I already explained my point of view why removing boost steal would not harm the game. I do agree though that it will change the game. How significant the change and what the exact effect would be is something that theorycrafting alone will not answer. This is why, I would love to see boost steal removed at least in a test version of the game.

The risk of yolo boosting is rarely used in high tier game, we shouldn't balance the gsme for low or medium tier play.
From my point of view, removing boost steal would not change the game much in high level play. The situations in which it is applicable in high level play either could be resolved with an added left click, or are insignificant enough to matter.


Besides the added consistency on yolos and distant boost steals in general there is another reason why I want to see boost steal removed:
Boost resteal is one of the most annoying things when you are trying to pressure somebody for the puck. This excludes the "striker vs last man" situation, which from my point of view can be resolved by good positioning and reaction on the defense side. However, pressuring somebody who is not really in a dangerous position, stealing the puck from him only to have it restolen by a boost in a random direction, is really frustrating. In this case, I am not willing to sacrifice a boost since that person still remains in a fairly bad position. The only thing accomplished on his side is that he retained control of the puck while still not having a real opportunity to establish an attack. Often enough he would run around in no-man's land waiting for this boost cooldown, which slows down the game in a frustrating and, more importantly, boring manner. Never mind the fact that more often than not, I cannot even tell if he timed his boost really well or just randomly lucked out with his boost timing.
rerecalf
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 3:44 pm
Battle.net Name: aaaa
Battle.net Char Code: 0
Battle.net Server: NA

Re: New mechanics testing

Post by rerecalf » Tue May 31, 2016 5:06 pm

Zachsmack and i stopped playing because boost steal was removed. Me...because i'm a goalie. And will not support any mechanics that make goalying any harder. very vital for goalie and it was a big mistake removing it. You messed up real bad music.
Post Reply