ZH Goalie Test Map

Post suggestions you have here that relate to the game's mechanics
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LittleDicky
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Re: ZH Goalie Test Map

Post by LittleDicky » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:30 pm

Vapour wrote: Not a fan of the
themusic wrote:"-10% Goalie movement outside crease"
+1, let them fly. make goalies less boring.
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Re: ZH Goalie Test Map

Post by themusic » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:19 pm

It's currently -20%. It degrades the speed over about 2 seconds so its not instant. So like, if you run out of the crease and grab and and go back in, you wont really notice any change.

Feels pretty good imo :O
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Re: ZH Goalie Test Map

Post by Bulbasaaur » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:11 pm

themusic wrote:It's currently -20%. It degrades the speed over about 2 seconds so its not instant. So like, if you run out of the crease and grab and and go back in, you wont really notice any change.

Feels pretty good imo :O
make it -0% out of net and ill main goalie next season
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Re: ZH Goalie Test Map

Post by BoooM » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:32 pm

themusic wrote:...
Double Boost:
...
This sounds like something that could be fun.
I feel like it could be a small nerf to the offense since it would allow the goalie to fix positioning mistakes and evacs in some situations but it is really hard to theorycraft about this change since there are some many "whats" and "ifs".
Overall, I am open to this change that may spice things up and increase the interest in playing goalie.
themusic wrote: Bigger Net & Stick & Crease:
The bigger net and bigger stick does open the net up slightly, but also requires the goalie to be more active and not reward just staticly sitting in one spot for an entire play until its cleared out.
Theoretically, this seems like a huge buff to the goalie in the current meta (An extreme amount of goals in the last EUDL happened from right outside the crease).
When there is a striker juking at the crease the goalie aims to remain right in front of him so there are no open corners. With the puck being at the end of the striker's stick, he can open a scoring opportunity by turning in the opposite direction and shooting behind the goalie. This possibility would remain with the intended changes as well and the bigger net would make it a bit easier for the striker to hit the goal. However, often the goalie would be sub-optimally positioned in such a way that both corners are open to the striker (often due to turns/moves while the striker is juking). The increased stick length would pretty much remove this possibility. Any jukes that used to take advantage from a forced positional mistake by the goalie would be significantly nerfed. Basically, scoring from the edge of the crease would only be possible if the striker turns and shoots faster than the goalie can react. Even then the longer goalie stick would reduce the possibility of scoring from the crease at any conceivable angle as long as the goalie is enough ahead of the goal line.
Another thing worth mentioning is that in the situations where the goalie's reaction time to turn is the determining factor if the striker scores or not, this change would make saves even harder than now with high delay on the goalie (or rather make aiming at the goal and scoring easier) (seems noteworthy since you mentioned that the stopping speed change is to relieve goalies in high latency games).

themusic wrote: Sniping:
From a geometrical standpoint, snipes from top or bottom angles have been nurfed and snipes in the middle have been buffed. I feel like this is a change for the better, as sniping currently has a very low success rate (in more competitive play). Putting more emphasis on defense is also not a bad thing (defense becomes more important especially when attackers are in the middle in front of the net).
If one only takes the goalie+stick size in account then this is true. However, from what I understand the FF size is still the same. This means that in any situation where a FF was needed to save a snipe, the goalie gets nerfed (except very sharp angles). Basically, the overall sniping angle range becomes a bit smaller, but meanwhile the range in which a FF without boost would save a snipe becomes much smaller.
I also very much disagree that this change puts any importance at all on the defense. It is impossible as a defender to reliably block a striker that boosts and shoots straight away.
I do agree however that currently sniping has a very low success rate. Making snipes a bit more viable in competitive play sounds worth exploring. The increased net size and the resulting increased significance of a goalie's reaction in stopping them may increase the goalie skill cap and thus the interest in this position.
On a side note, this is another aspect of the changes that would punish goalies in high latency games disproportionately.

themusic wrote: One-timing & Passing on offense:
One-timing and passing have been buffed with the larger net, though arguably only a little (remember the goalie has 2 boosts, the crease is larger, and the goalie does have more movement speed). Still a buff though, and i think this is a good change, we have to remember this is a change for BOTH teams, and not just you as goalie, or your team alone. It also promotes teamplay :)
This remains to be seen. The only apparent buff to one-timing in these changes is that the tolerance for a bad aim is increased. The increased difficulty from scoring from right outside of the crease may indeed promote passing on offense, but with the double boost for the goalie it remains to be seen if this is indeed the case.
themusic wrote: New S stop for goalie:
Currently in the test map, the "S" when you move+S slows you down how it used to back in the day (not the immediate stop). The Boost+S cuts the boost short like it currently does in the live version (the boost+S combo did not change). The reason this change was tested was to attempt to take the best of both worlds. In higher latency games especially, hitting "S" in the current live version has a much higher rate of inconsistency. Sometimes you will slide more, sometimes less, because of the way it works cutting your momentum by 50% and exponentially slowing you to a stop. When you move+S in the test map it stops you like it does a normal zealot "S". This also opens up the ability to bounce off the post at a much more effective rate and using "S" to top completely cut off your momentum at a random latency delay. Hopefully that made sense...
From what I remember, the "S" change last time was very well received. I do not see a reason to revert it to what it once was. However, I do not have much experience as a goalie and even less so with high latency, so you may have a point.
themusic wrote: -2 seconds cooldown for boost:
Still not sure about this one. I don't really see any issues with it at all, kind of nice having this progress a bit faster.
Increasing the pace of the game sounds really good. If nothing else, it would at least shave some time off in those situations when a player stalls the game waiting for his boost to be available again.

themusic wrote: Goalie speed increase/decrease:
There was a slight buff to speed inside the crease to make relocating a bit easier with a larger crease and net. To prevent offensive goalies and having goalies take on a more aggressive offensive mindset, their speed was reduced to 20% outside the crease. This has a confining feel, and increases the risk when leaving the crease. Especially combined with double boost, i think this is pretty much required and honestly a good change. It also makes pulling the goalie actually have a purpose, which it should. (Though i think the goalie should move at 4x speed to the wall or instantly swap out for a zealot, but thats a different topic).
With all the other changes, this one seems really insignificant. The speed decrease outside of the crease seems really uncalled for, though.

themusic wrote: Boost Steal
Don't really care either way on this one. It does buff defense a bit which is nice with the wider sniping angles from mid. It still feels a bit random though, so maybe the answer is making it feel less random rather than removing it completely? idk
Meh. I do not feel like beating a dead horse.


My personal opinion on the changes:

[BAD]................1. "S" stop is reverted to old "S" for goalies (where you slide a bit more)
[QUESTIONABLE]...2. 10% larger goal, 7% larger crease
[QUESTIONABLE]...3. 15% larger goalie stick
[INTERESTING].....4. Goalie boost now has 2 charges (12sec CD/charge)
[NEUTRAL]..........5a. Goalie movespeed change (inside crease)
[BAD]................5b. Goalie movespeed change (outside crease)
[GOOD]..............6. Skater boost CD reduced by 20% (so 8 seconds total)
[NEUTRAL]..........7. Skater now has boost steal
[BAD]................8. -11% movement speed with puck possession (decay over 1.5 seconds) for both skaters and goalie


p.s. about point 8.
As a defender I would very much welcome this change. I am not quite sure how noticeable this would be, but it sounds like another unnecessary nerf to strikers.
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Re: ZH Goalie Test Map

Post by Tenkz » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:40 pm

If these forums have taught us anything, it's that eu opinions are always wrong hehehehehe...

also woot goalie buffs!!!!
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Re: ZH Goalie Test Map

Post by themusic » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:04 pm

#8 was removed fyi, too much change at once. I actually really liked it though when playing with it just fyi, promotes teamplay and indirectly nurfs bitchwalking a bit. The speed also degrades over 2 seconds so its not instant, and you can still dribble close to maintain max speed if you feel pro enough to live on the edge.
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Re: ZH Goalie Test Map

Post by BoooM » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:23 pm

Since I claimed that the longer stick of the goalie allows him to cover a wider angle of the goal despite the increase of the goal's size, I felt like I needed to check that I was not wrong.

Image

Above you can see the current and proposed goal sizes.
The 3D depictions in sc2 distort the size/length/width of things in the distance. The two dotted lines on the top depict the outer border of the current (bottom) and proposed (top) crease after compensating for the distortion.
Red line is the current goalie.
Orange is the proposed goalie with a longer stick.
The orange line is the above the red line so the goalie has the same distance from the border of the crease in both scenarios.
The goalie has been placed at an arbitrary position, but I would say this is representative enough of where goalies are when a striker is at the crease.
If the goalie stays closer to the crease, the new goalie's advantage increases. If he stays further back it decreases and turns to an advantage for the old goalie at some point.
The red and the black triangles do not depict anything, I was just too lazy to remove them after drawing them to set the coordinates for the posts and the creases.
The width of the two pink rectangles is the total increase of the angle covered by the new goalie in this situation.
The striker is assumed central to the goal, which is the worst possible situation for the goalie (least gain in coverage from the new goalie's size).
The further along the sides the striker is, the more significant becomes the coverage gain of the goalie.

I tried to be as exact as humanly possible, but measurement mistakes are still possible. Nevertheless, any measurement errors on the goal's and crease's size would be absolutely insignificant on the situation above (nothing would change).
Errors in the measurements of the immortal's size and the stick's length could change the result but are still impossible to cause the current goalie to be having an advantage over the new goalie in the situation above. Also, this statement would remain true: "The further along the sides the striker is, the more significant becomes the coverage gain of the goalie."


The values used for calculations are the values mentioned in this thread. If anybody cares, any values measured can be found under the following link:
http://www.filedropper.com/sources
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Re: ZH Goalie Test Map

Post by forumusername » Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:19 pm

illuminati
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[+] ruckLUL
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Re: ZH Goalie Test Map

Post by themusic » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:21 am

Diagrams! Looks like an NES game
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Re: ZH Goalie Test Map

Post by OzyWho » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:27 am

Did I read somewhere that skater will have boost steal back? That was before my time, I never experienced it, but it feels as if it would be a bigger deal than the goalie changes. I hope that will never happen :roll:
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