Complaint about the first resolution.

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McDoudles
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Complaint about the first resolution.

Post by McDoudles » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:20 pm

So I've been complaining about the resolution to ban 1st/2nd EU rounders from NA probe league in discord already, but I think I was never really able to explain fully why this ruling is really unfair towards us.
First of all, I want to say why this even bothers me. I had fun playing probe last season. The meta is completly different, I am able to play more forward than I usually do and I don't play with the same people over and over again like on EU.

1.
The main argument you gave for banning EUs, is that Probe league is a tournament to help people improve.
I don't think that is true at all. Probe league seems to be more like a 2nd division than a league primarily to develop a players skill. If it were a dev. league, only players that are promising and new to the game would play. But that's not the case. An example: Provyseals (I take him since he's retired and will probably forgive me) played the game atleast as long as any 1st/2nd rounder on EU at that time and had a similar amount of games. He would have been estimated to improve by the same amount as me by playing in probe league (actually I will probably improve more cause I get used to the delay more and more). Yet still he's allowed in a league meant to develop players, while I'm not allowed. There are many more players that actually sign up this season, both EU and NA, which have a high amount of games, haven't improved by much, but are still allowed to play in probe. (I don't want to name anyone here, seems a bit bm)
Additionally, if probe was meant to be a dev. league, the rotation in probe teams would be forced to be higher. Instead the rotation is low every season, except if an owner ever did rotate probes by himself (I don't know if that ever was the case on NA).
So probe league is more of an competitive environment (2nd division), than a league to improve players.

2.
There was an argument being made that a NA event should only have NA players.
If you really want that, atleast be consequent and ban all EUs. I doubt that anyone wants that though, since the community is already pretty small.
In addition to that, Mets said that EUs "steal" spots from NA newbies that have potential and want "screen time" aswell. If that's the case, then a better solution would be to force a high rotation (as I said in 1.) or to simply have a higher amount of probe teams instead of banning players that are motivated and want to improve on NA to make it to ZHL. (more on that in 4.)

3.
Another argument was that higher round EUs unbalance probe league. While I partly agree on this, the fault is that the owners just seem to have no idea who's good and don't seem to be willing to find out.
Also, I believe that I personally didn't play well enough to truely unbalance our team. Our team was simply strong because of, as I already said, the owners just drafting badly.
At this point I already want to mention that being owner is not that easy and that you may have to sink more time into it to be succesful than you think before a season.
The reason why I partly agree on this, is luffy. He's to good to play in probe and I understand why he should be left out. However it seems pretty dumb that luffy is way above probe level, but doesn't have any influence in ZHL. There are already rules that could ban him if he was drafted higher in zhl (or if you adjust the rule and ban 5th/6th rounders as well).

4.
This is a bit more personal about my case and less about other EUs that are better or worse on NA than I am.
The issue I personally have is that I'm just between ZHL and Probe league (that's what people tell me atleast). It's likely that I only get subbed for like 1-2 games this season in ZHL or not get drafted at all. If I'm not drafted at all, I can't play this season at all. This results in me not being able to show myself and not improve while playing with a bad ping or adjusting to a different meta. Assuming the rule is kept in S13, I won't be drafted in ZHL for certain. Yet still I am banned in probe since I'm likely to be drafted 1st/2nd round on EU again.
Basically I'm fucked in that case right, never being able to play on NA unless I drop to 3rd round on EU.
This also means newer EUs that improve to be 1st/2nd rounders but are unknown on NA will never be able to play there.
You can argue that I could just sink in a high amount of time on NA, playing IH and IXDL to get better and show myself, but to be honest I have no interest in staying up till 4am+ just for a chance to be invited to an IH where most of you fucklords only troll anyway.

So what I'm trying to say:
- You claim probe league is a dev. league, which it is not.
- Even if it would be a dev. league, I have the same chance to improve as other probes.
- I won't unbalance the league (just rewatch some of the probe games of me last season).
- I won't be able to play probe or ZHL on NA again, effectively reducing the player base of a small community.

In the end, I want to emphasize that I don't mind being left out if it happens in a way that's fair. If you really want probe league to be a dev. league for NAs, take the advices that I mention in 1., 2. and 3. into account and be consquent about it.
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Re: Complaint about the first resolution.

Post by krazymen » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:38 pm

I dont have any input on this since I'm not much in the community anymore but I would like to say that probe league was made originally to be a development league and was designed as such in the beginning. Keep in mind that since then there has been a lot of different management and idea that created rules which changed probe league in different ways. However, what probe league is vs what we want probe league to be is completely 2 different things.
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Re: Complaint about the first resolution.

Post by LittleDicky » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:27 pm

Agreed, but i have mixed feelings because i feel like EUs playing in NA is a more complicated matter than NAs on EU. It is harder for EUs to find time playing on NA high hours, plus NA has games in middle of week unlike EU sundays which are extremely easy to participate for NAs. I think due to this it's more risky pick EUs on NA.


Anyway, i suggest to add on the draftboart the round an EU player was picked on his server most recent season next to his name. "McDoudles (2R)"
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Re: Complaint about the first resolution.

Post by Elharion » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:05 pm

This change is sort of needed. Here is why:
1) NA probe league is NOT a developmental league, it is a competitive league
You think that probe is meant to be a developmental league, but it is more of a competition for lower level players who cannot make it into the higher levels. In this way, having eu carries taking up spots ruins the game for real probes, who without this league don't get any competitive experience and leave. NA probes have much more to gain than EU first and second rounders, and the league is made for them, not you guys.
2) EUs are inconsistent and easily ruin the balance
There so many of these examples. MoS basically never showed up for 5 straight seasons, so he went sixth round. He suddenly starts showing up and pretty much carries a team… from the sixth round. Eus often feel no obligation to show up. Last season Destro went as the 9th pick in probe, and since he never showed up, completely ruined that team. On the other hand the winning team got luffy always showing up in the tenth round. This is especially a problem cuz we have the west server and weekday games. Not gonna lie, this is also a problem on eu, but I'd actually encourage them to ban 1st and 2nd round na players from playing eu probe if they can manage to do it without having 20 free agents per day in probe.
3) Idk what to call this point
This is more of an add on to others, but real probes get benched because of eu stars. Last season many probes got benched so eu players who really don't care about probe could play. Rangerkaw, trench, moclac, immortal, elspach, cooltiger, and many more all got benched for eu players, and many of them stopped playing because they were getting no play time… in a league made for them.
4) Reason this needs to happen and why it doesn't hurt eus too badly
Plain and simple. There is no other solution, na probes need to play probe and eu starters don't. Luffy literally said he didn't care about na probe. Anyway, most eus won't be affected badly, but the ones who are might be made an exception to. There are many west players who are borderline zhl, and could be subbed by eu. Peterdlai, umbreon, leperkon, alerteyes, vile, and many more west players are borderline zhl and could be subbed by many eus. Maybe if you ask mets he will make an exception, but you could be an east sub too in theory.
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Re: Complaint about the first resolution.

Post by iSpyGecko » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:12 pm

McDoudles wrote:
So what I'm trying to say:
- You claim probe league is a dev. league, which it is not.
- Even if it would be a dev. league, I have the same chance to improve as other probes.
- I won't unbalance the league (just rewatch some of the probe games of me last season).
- I won't be able to play probe or ZHL on NA again, effectively reducing the player base of a small community.

-Probe is first a developmental league and second a competition. If experienced Europeans with hundreds or thousands of games are getting playtime over new improving players, which was happening often in a 6 team format, then this is an issue.
-You say you should have the same chance as these people but you fail to realize that these people don't have a second league to go play in as you do. (EUDL) They would be benched in EU probe.
-The rule is likely not going to have a Mcdoudles clause to allow you to play probe whether or not you imba the league as that's not the majority of the point.
-If you don't wish to be a ZHL sub then you always have the option to continue playing in EUDL unlike the people who's spot you would be taking.

The majority of the decision is on the basis that in a more concentrated draft(6 teams opposed to 8 or 10) EUDL stars are taking the place of new players who are looking to play in a league environment. We aren't going to go name by name and determine how many probe games career ZHPL players are allowed to play before they are banned from probe because: 1. That's retarded in concept. 2. These players do not have a second league to fall back to play in.
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Re: Complaint about the first resolution.

Post by McDoudles » Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:38 am

To Elharion:
(responding to your points)
1) I think the argument that NA probes just have this league and me blocking spots of them can be made and is fair enough. But I can't understand why other, lower EU rounds are allowed then since they play have their own events on EU aswell and are taking up spots aswell of NA probes aswell. Also, as I already said, having high rotation and/or more probe team would help solving this issue more than simply banning a few players.

2) Fair enough, but I think any NA that's returning can ruin balance aswell. Also having Destro as the 9th pick in probe is ridiculous, he doesn't even get drafted this high on EU, although he might be able to perform at that level. People not showing up can happen for both EUs and NAs on either server; it's always been an issue and probably always will be. Attendence is one of the things that really unbalances leagues.

3) Very similar to 1)

4) If you make an exception for me, then the ruling has serious flaws. While I could be a sub for west players, what happens if I don't get to be one? As I mentioned, I probably don't have a chance to play ZHL on NA again then.

To iSpyGecko:
(in order)
- Same issue exists with NAs that have hundreds or thousands of games. Literally no difference beside nationality.
- Already said this could be solved by having more teams and rules to force higher rotation.
- I never claimed there should be an exception for me. I believe luffy/mos/slide/tyrion/poodle/etc. unbalance probe. But having them drafted in zhl would automatically ban them from probe so there shouldn't be an extra rule for that. Beside that, the rule is already retarded in that regard, since poodle can sign up this season and be drafted in probe. He's (and I am sure everyone agrees on this) better than me by far on NA. Do you just ban him from probe manually? What about returning NA players, do you also just ban them from probe cause they might unbalance and take away spots?
- I seriously don't understand your point there sorry. I wish to play either ZHL or Probe league or both.

I just can repeat what I said as a last sentence.
"In the end, I want to emphasize that I don't mind being left out if it happens in a way that's fair. If you really want probe league to be a dev. league for NAs, take the advices that I mention in 1., 2. and 3. into account and be consquent about it."

I really don't mind being left out of probe league. But atleast do it in a fair way, give probe rotation rules, ban all EUs from probe league, get more ZHL teams for more chances etc.
The way it's done now, EUs between probe and ZHL level have a really hard time even playing on NA even though they're motivated to do so.
Last edited by McDoudles on Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Complaint about the first resolution.

Post by DerrocK » Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:12 am

Ima tank this eu season so next season i get drafted in round +3 and get to play NA probe then ez season because no EU top tier against me.
Oh wait no need to tank since im locking goalie next season LUL
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Re: Complaint about the first resolution.

Post by Elharion » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:55 am

This isn't really the easiest thing to explain, but it is done for reasons obvious to the management. We're trying to point out that for NA probes, this is their only league. Eudl players who don't have to worry in the slightest about starting don't need to be taking probe spots. If you really want to play on na that bad, then make a name for yourself there and you can start as east sub probably. Even if you don't, it is ridiculous to allow you to be drafted in probe, you have eudl. They didn't ban rounds 3 and 4 because many of these players cannot really unbalance probe. Banning all eus would be really cruel to eus like swedishdoll who don't break the league and add a lot to it. This is the reason why eu rounds 1+2 are banned from probe, and the management will probably do the same with tomek solid or poodle if they sign up.
Now to address your point about a higher rotation: in theory this is great, but lets be honest, there is no way to enforce this. Teams can always say that a new player isn't available, and then they won't play. How are we supposed to create a system that creates a rotation in probe? It isn't feasible. There is pretty much no way to create a system that gets all players equal playing time with the resources available. They'd need to get a whole new group of people to manage this, which would certainly not feel like a fun job. So they'd probably end up with naive idiots like me who think people will listen to them. The system isn't even really good on paper. Teams would be REWARDED for drafting inactive players or smurfs so that they don't have to rotate out their top players.
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Re: Complaint about the first resolution.

Post by McDoudles » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:24 pm

Elharion wrote: Even if you don't, it is ridiculous to allow you to be drafted in probe, you have eudl. They didn't ban rounds 3 and 4 because many of these players cannot really unbalance probe. Banning all eus would be really cruel to eus like swedishdoll who don't break the league and add a lot to it. This is the reason why eu rounds 1+2 are banned from probe, and the management will probably do the same with tomek solid or poodle if they sign up.
Please explain me how swedishdoll adds more to a league than other EUs and how this even matters.. Please also explain how I am unbalancing the league while 3rd/4th rounders like Dalton, Locas, Eiki etc don't? You called me shit the entire last season on EU.. I really don't understand why it's cruel to ban all EUs, while it's fine to ban some.
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Re: Complaint about the first resolution.

Post by Elharion » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:30 pm

The idea is that some eus show up every time every season and don't break the league at all. Dalton locos and eiki wouldn't be able to break the league, because when you add on the delay they wouldn't be playing at a zhl level anyway, and have things to gain from participating.
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