Why i disagree with the Elo League

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Why i disagree with the Elo League

Post by Lexaya » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:34 am

Hello people,
as it seems that iam the only Person that have a problem with the new Elo League i wanted to explain myself here. (At this point i would like to remeber you as reader, that u arent forced to read this whole thing <3 )

1. The Time to realease
So, my first Problem with the new Elo System was actually the date it started, right at the Sunday of League, wich wasnt the point to actually do such a thing as there was actually the need to play within the league teams (or at least it should :). But not only there is a Problem with the realing date, i also c it problematic, that there is the try to introduce the 3rd league (thanks at this point to Auron, who reminded me that there is CL and DL going at the same time) wich i would like to call --->

Argument 2. "permanent ratings"
With this 3rd league system the amount off actuall "non competitive" games (or lets rather say "ranked" competitive games). So space to actually try something new, gets bit less. Cause in these games you are always rated so possible new standings as goalie, or tries of new combinations within players might be less likely. You always want to suceed in a ranked system (lets say mostly) and u wouldnt try something new, or maybe something that seems stupid in the first place, if u know u are getting constantly rated (not only by points within one game) We have enough "over all games" competitive possibilites with DL and CL (imo). Wich wound not break your leg if you wouldnt : ---->

3rd Argument. Exclusion
AS far as i understood (!) iam not able to join a elo Lobby, if iam not actually set in this lobby by the random system. Making it impossible for me (as not participant of the elo league) to actually play in a normal priv lobby, or even to fill up a +1 lobby in case. Wich actually forces me to join this league if i actually want to play ^^" + forcing me to go to discord, ---->

4th argument: Keep it running
Though beeing happy to actually finally have a conncetion of more than 1MB/s (5! yay!) lately there are some people that doesnt have.... lets say the newest NVIDIA stuff out there. Not only do u have to keep Discord running behind Starcraft wich sucks off some of your performance / connection but aswell, it is annoying to keep alt tabbing to get to a new lobby (if u arent neardy enough to have a 2nd Screen of course ;) and not evryone have that.) This is something, that wasnt necessary before, and doesnt have to be in my opinion.

Point 5 Forcing teams
If u should get in the situation that u are actually not in a .... love relationship with others (so u have people u hate) You u are foced to play with them. Even if u dont want. Killing the freedom to just evade facing these people maybe even causing conflict potential. Or maybe u just fucked up the 3rd game in a row against a goalie (or other way around) and want to play a game without this player against u, to recover or get some more self confidence again (wich doesnt mean u want to play in a pub now). No chance. |On the otherhand of course, if u want to play with a friend or in a group u cant even be sure to be in the same lobby (not even starting about "in the same team"| <--- but as this is just an further thing of argument 1, i wont consider it as an stand alone point

Number 6. "But it balances!"
I heard oftenly that the good thing in that elo thing is the balance system. So (not at the start but ... after ... time...(who knows how much)) good people play with good people, medium with medium and rookies vs rookies. In my Opinion, there is no REAL advantage in this system. It is actually possible for it, after this "learning time" to balance games due to the overall settings of your skills and thats actually a good thing BUT the priv games we had in the past wasnt like 50% of it imbalanced. It was oftenly good balanced due to draft system (auto bala not rly imo, but thats off topic :D) Evryone wanted a balanced game, so the Captains balanced it easily + : You could consider if u have a bad day (or night) the balancing system cant adapt to that. In the old system u just wrote in channel or lobby or even in the picking "i suck today" or something similar, others knew that and could reakt to that. Even if u didnt wrote it and u played the 2. game with (most/some) of the same people, they saw it by themselfes. So specially the peaks of skill (either in the good or bad way) cant be rly considerd in the elo league system.

So, these are the main points i c, and rly, u can disagree with evry single point of it (though i dont wish that you do <3) i just wanted to write it down maybe hoping, that i triggered some thought weither this system is ultimately necessary or that we actually were happy without it too.

Disclaimers, : i own the rights on all these arguments (kappa) and all the writing mistakes (sadly true) sry for that <3

Beeing happy to have named evry Number at the intros differently, Lexaya
(Feel free to discuss with me "factualy/soberly/objectively")

(If this is the wrong place for this post, dont hesistate to move it where it is right and be sure to have my thanks for that :) )
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Re: Why i disagree with the Elo League

Post by CORSINUS » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:11 pm

Totaly agreed with lexaya !
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Re: Why i disagree with the Elo League

Post by Tenkz » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:02 pm

Hey lex ILY but I really have to disagree with your 4th point specifically, as I get less than 30 FPS on most games and am able to keep discord running without it hurting my performance. Other points are valid criticisms though.
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Re: Why i disagree with the Elo League

Post by McDoudles » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:37 pm

1. I don't see an issue in releasing elo league on a sunday. This way you had loads of games to warm up which wasn't the case on other sundays. It might be bad that you couldn't warm up with your team that day, but the season is running for 8+ (?) weeks.
In addition to that, you can't really see elo "league" as a 3rd league next to zhcl and draft league. It's just privates/ih plus a ladder and some rules. The teams are different every game, you don't keep them for months. You aren't "forced" to play on specific dates. You have no additional work to do, no training, no owners. Only Marker and some Mods have extra work. It's not a "league" that competes with DL or clan ladder to replace them or whatever you're thinking right now.

2. More competitive (or lets call them serious games) is a great thing. The only reason that some people come online is for high level games where everyone tries to win and doesn't just fool around. For me personally it's no fun and one reason I'm rarely online for ih/privs in the past and I also think that there weren't enough competitive games. 1 game per week on sunday and maybe 1 game every 4 weeks on saturday? At times where I just lag around? Not enough.
Don't get me wrong, it might be fun to some other people like you to have games that aren't that serious, where people don't play to win, but maybe to try something or to just have fun. There are still pubs running for these kind of things.

3. Pubs.

4. You can close discord, no need to have it running. You have to alt tab out one time, alt tab back in another time when the game starts (If you even run sc2). Oh ma gawd that's to much right?
Having discord is a big advantage for me and should be for you too. I don't need sc2 running to see any lobbies (or bnet running to guess if there are any lobbies according to my friends list) and can continue doing whatever I was doing (lets say studying Kappa). And I can't even miss the lobby cause of the discord notification. Just start sc2 up before the game starts. The lobby takes some time to be arranged anyway.

5. I know being forced to play with others can suck, but the same thing might just happen in common privs/ih aswell where you get drafted on the same team as they do. Of course you can counter that by saying "I will be captain myself or I will tell the captains I don't want to play with that player. One reason why there was an argument to add drafting to the bot which should be nice for you (that's another topic though).
Now going to the playing as a group thing: From your perspective it's probably pretty shit to not be able to play with your friends/clan whatever all the time. From the perspective of other players it might suck to play against the same people over and over again.

6. Who even said that elo league balances well LOL? Most people raged around that balance sucks in that league, that's why a drafting system was discussed.
Personally I had lots of good games, because people were finally trying to win. I give a shit about a game being unbalanced here and there if every other game feels intense.

I have to say I'm happy that you wrote this down here, easier to respond to.
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Re: Why i disagree with the Elo League

Post by Phi » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:56 pm

I played elo actively early on, I don't now, is less elo fault and more just being tired of funny zh quirks like ghost sticks, 1km steals, ping consistency issues among others, on top of me being bad as is. Anyhow, let's examine what I think of your points.

1.I don't dig this. Could it have started at a better time? I guess. Can't really un-spill this spaghettio, so not much to be done about it. Also, elo practically replaced priv system, not like people couldn't start privs on league day, at least in theory. Also I feel little empathy to this problem, as a non-league scrub league days used to be pretty annoying, with choice ranging between a) go pub b) go against draft team and get roflstomped. So Your 1st point doesn't convince me, I can at best semi-agree that time to unleash elo could have been picked better. What's done's done though.

2.I never cared about elo that much, but I felt motivated like I hadn't been in a long time, because people were actually trying to play good and win with the random team setups, which was fun, rather than doing same teams against same teams which is eudl/zhcl in a nutshell. And the classic priv, where you had higher level players just lazing about and expending little effort at best, and full on trolling at worst. Though 3 goalie teams and other fascinating elo systems ideas of balance are not really that far from trolly players, so eh.

3. Honestly, bar the chance of not getting into lobby due to elo decision(it might be worse now, wrote from my impression of when i played actively), i've had easier time getting games than ever. And not frequenting discord is really suboptimal in general. At least can participate and check out news and stuff when not doing other stuff elo /zh playing not withstanding.. I should be paid for how much I advocate dcord use :D

4. Whatever I said in 3rd point, I feel your pain as fellow potato computer user. I really do, though time for reporting result and starting new lobby is long enough that I don't feel much discomfort with alt tab. That is me however, maybe my potato is beefier than your potato(6.5 year old laptopato here), but discord doesn't seem to bite into pc resources that much.

5. I disagree. Unless you get 4 people premade team, then in normal priv you have every chance to be picked in a team with someone you don't like /have 0(or -9999) chem with. That is different if captain(s) know for example, that lexaya hates to be same team as pere, they'll not pick that combination but what if one captain knows and other does not? or both don't? Sure you can explicitly state that if you play with guy X you are f10-quitting, and sure, i've seen instances of that, but definitely there's less of those than games with people you don't click with. It doesn't even have to be hate, could be a great guy who has skill, but your approaches are just so different you will inevitably think of each other as 'what the hell is going on in his head'.

6. Gotta hand you this one I guess. how elo decides on teams atm is not that different from autobala. Sure it might improve, but point is, it's not good rn. That being said bala in zh has been precarious in privs, pubs and leagues.

What I just thought of though, is that elo increases entry barrier. New guy plays some pubs, joins channel, in some time starts getting into privs/leagues. is how things worked. And even then you'd sometimes find pubber with 100s of games who'd be like 'oh wow, group channel?leagues? tell me more' , but now is more like- be in pub, mby someone advertises elo league, which could potentially mean having to dl discord altogether(as ubiquitous as it's use in zh community may be, not necessarily the case for most people), getting used to how it works, joining channel, getting used to elo system, maybe get screamed at by some salty people whose elo gets rekt. Considering how lazy people can be, it's probably easier to convince a new pub guy to join in-sc2 chat and engage in community that way, rather than via 3rd party stuff. That being said discord is kinda the goto thing for many a gaming community, so maybe i'm overthinking it and is not really as much of a factor.

Also there is the issue that some people can be extra toxic and salty when losing elo, having some bad games, but really, that's nothing exclusive to elo. You'd get same shit with privs too.

At the end of the day, my overall impression of elo, has decreased some(not as much as my actual elo tho LUL), but I can't exactly say I hate it with a burning passion. How's elo impacted na since they have had it longer? ( I'm literally oblivious about na zh, except the na people who come to play eu). No verdict from me, just thoughts and questions, you're welcome Kappa
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Re: Why i disagree with the Elo League

Post by Lexaya » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:07 pm

Hello McD

@ 3
I think its far to ez to say "there are privs" cause people beeing good enough to play privs then are forced to do pubs (though i would even doubt that a bit. Cause a lot of people do elo, and even pub gamers come to get these elo league wich leads to even lesser pool of people for "normal" privs or pubs) and even if u would disagree to that, u would force these "priv" players to join league or play pubs with the people that struggle what "X" means or dont pass. That would actually lead to these players to join or quit ultimately. So i dont think iam wrong at that, saying that u FORCE these league, weither someone wants it or not

to 4th.
no its not much. but for evry additional thing you do, there should be an advantage out of it. This Alt+Tab thing wasnt necessary earlier so these alt tabbing evry game is useless comparted to the fact u didnt needed it earlier.
And there are disadvantages about beeing able to "join" a lobby without having SCII running. Simply but : u have to start SCII. So either there are X People there who could actually join the lobby, the space is kept for someone who isnt even online so u have to wait again, though it wouldnt be necessary + the time to arrange the lobby. yes, it might not be much, but it just stacks and (as said) its not necessary.

to 5
Not only that u can be caiptain yourself or say it, u can actually decide to leave the lobby and rather wait for maybe 2. lobby. So u even have 3 possibilities to evade to face someone. 0 for Elo League.
With Elo league u dont get more players (as said above u even get LESS players due to exclusion), u just get the same players splitted differently. ACtually u get more diversity in a non elo league system. There u have the possibilty to say, "u take 2 "pub" players withing the lobby" and then u split them and have a balanced lobby. With the Elo system (as far as i understood) : good players vs good players. So there will be a time where the round 1,2,3 players keep playing within themselves WITHOUT any possibility to get lower players to just join them (for practice or when its late).

to 6
I already talked with some people about my thought of elo league and this was an argument i heard twice, as i want this to be a objective discussion, there no need to tell names if not ultimately necessary, if it should be the most important to you, i can write you in PN after asking the people if it would be ok.
And intense games ARE possible with the actuall priv system actually if u get into a lobby and the game was AWESOME u have the possibilty to say "re" and just have another round of a well balanced and intense game.

And about people wanting to win instead of trolling. When u notice someone doing so, in the actuall system u pick him/or her later if its single pick or kick him actually from the lobby. There is no spare that someone actually trolls in a game, neither now, nor in the elo league system. IF they do it multiple times, both systems provide a solution. But the normal priv system can adapt and c if u maybe just have a bad day. like evryone. Or you just want to troll. (noticing by comments for example).

Still i dont c a advantage that is so weightfull that it explains why we need another system.

@ Corsi
@ Tenkz,
good to know (y) (iam not that good in technical things) does this mean it wont affect anyone, or it just doesnt affect you ?
and aswell thanks for giving me a point
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Re: Why i disagree with the Elo League

Post by Lexaya » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:26 pm

Hi Phi,
u just wrote while i was writing too ^^ so biiit shorter answer here, (just dont want to write half a book after writing half a book <3), hope u can forgive me there ^^

To your 2. Point i would lead/sign to my last point of the new post but u might be right that "new" system actually trigger maybe even absend players to come back, but its just a "something is new" factor, wich shouldnt be forced just to realese something new.

to your 4th point : same as said too tenkz

To your 5th point ill point at my 5th point at the new post -> (u have still the possibilitly to just say "then i prefer not to play" or the other possibilities) at least while beeing captain the chance u dont get someone u dont want is higher than the chance in Elo system)

Further more thank you aswell for reading,giving me a point and even adding new (contra) arguments <3 :P, didnt saw these ones.
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Re: Why i disagree with the Elo League

Post by Gandalf » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:28 pm

I run discord on my phone.

Therefore all your points are invalid.
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Re: Why i disagree with the Elo League

Post by LittleDicky » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:32 pm

Way too much text over simple matter.

You just want to play with usual friends but dont want to get ranked. Since you are great minority you will have to deal with it.

My suggestion is to use windowed fullscreen for fast alt tab.

You may have same problem in cryoblade thee will be likely a global ranking as well
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Re: Why i disagree with the Elo League

Post by Slide » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:35 am

GIVE IXDL, elo still a great concept :) but for goalies it's really hard to enjoy most game i feel like. at least on EU.
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